“I’m leaving the church.”
Over the past month, I have heard/read this phrase seven times. Once from an incredible woman in my home ward who can’t take anymore of the ward’s judgement. Once from a family member who has felt the church is too restrictive for years. Twice from young adults my age whose knowledge and testimonies of the gospel have buoyed my own in the past. The rest from good friends and acquaintances. Some of these announcements I’ve been expecting for months and years. Others, I never ever expected.
The intensity of the grief I have quietly shouldered these past few weeks has been hard to describe and has left me with an alarming loss for words. In the miniature chaos of having, as one friend described to me, multiple individuals whom I propped my testimony on discard their own, I’ve found myself wondering why I even bother. My social media accounts have been inundated with angry words about members of the church being voiceless and cowardly, critical articles about confirmation bias, Joseph Smith, the church’s stance on gay marriage; friends who virtually laud their doubts and tear apart the testimonies of my other friends. In the middle of this, I see some of my friends faltering and questioning, wondering why they stay, and it’s overwhelmed me. I’ve not been able to blog for weeks. I thought that was because I just felt uninspired. I’m suspecting it’s because I’ve been deeply discouraged, not wanting to add fuel to the flame, not wanting to hurt or be hurt by other people who are just waiting for a chance to do it. Not wanting to defend the beliefs that are so much a part of me, that I’d imagine I’d crumble apart without them, and only because I worry about how others would react.
Because of beliefs I have expressed on this blog and others, I’ve been cyber-bullied and sexually harassed by online strangers who have put me in virtual stocks to throw tomatoes at. I’ve been called horrible names and told I’m a horrible person in the comments on my blog. I’ve been told that I’m a totally brainwashed Mormon and that I’m on the verge of apostasy all in one long digital breath, and I’ve dealt with it. But to see some of the things my friends and family are saying? To see members of the church turning on members of the church? To watch so many doubt and then cause others to doubt and then invalidate their feelings for them? It’s crippled me.
I don’t want to and cannot stay quiet anymore.
I know that some of you reading this right now have serious doubts, and you’re wondering why you stay. And there’s no one there to encourage you to stay because the battle you’re fighting is quiet and lonely. I know that some of you reading this right now are doing so because you’re lurking about like the bigotry police, waiting for a reason to ridicule me and say, “You’re wrong! You’re so stupid and so wrong!” And I know that many of you reading this right now are just as discouraged as I am, because you’re seeing people who helped your testimony abandon theirs, and it’s breaking you apart. Many, many of you are wondering why the words of the prophets seem so at odds with the words that the media, society, and your own friends are telling you. Many of you don’t believe the words of prophets at all. Many of you don’t see other members living up to what the prophets ask us to do, and it hurts.
In a time that is so chaotic, confusing, and heartbreaking, a time when men’s hearts fail them and men’s testimonies don’t seem to be enough, it’s easy to say, “You know what? I don’t want any part of this. It’s hard to be a member of the church, it’s embarrassing to be a member of the church, it’s not worth it to be a member of the church, and it’s stupid to be a member of the church.” It’s easy to think that. But I believe that most of us who think that way have forgotten whose church this is. It doesn’t belong to prophets or men or the whims of society. It belongs to Jesus Christ.
He is the center, basis, and foundation of every part of it. He’s who we worship, who we strive to be like, and who we make covenants for. He’s in every ordinance, and should be in every testimony, because in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Christ is not some far off deity. He’s a living, omnipresent Savior who can be found in everything and every person. Our scriptures confirm that. The New Testament is not some made up storybook. It’s documented testimony of the men and women who surrounded Christ, who boldly declared that Jesus Christ was who He said He was and did what He said He did. The Book of Mormon is not some made up storybook. It’s a compilation of testimony after testimony after testimony after testimony of men and women who saw Christ, understood Christ, waited hopefully for Christ, and reaffirmed that Christ would come. Even when accused of being fiction by critics of the church, the Book of Mormon functions exactly as the words of Christ’s early apostles do, not to glorify prophets, but to glorify the Messiah.
Some would suggest that the church is not true because prophets have been wrong, because prophets are imperfect, and because prophets just don’t understand. I wonder, however, what we would worship if we had perfect men leading this church. Would we remember to worship the Savior without being compelled to do so? Would we see the consistent need for and infinite capacity of His Atonement? I can’t say we would. Instead of perfection, we have imperfect men who have made mistakes, yes, even mistakes that our 21st Century brains find shocking and hard to understand. We often falsely suggest that prophets are perfect. We often struggle with the thought that they aren’t. Many who pour over doctrinal oddities and human faults found in the saints of early church history use it as justification to leave and condemn the church. But this church was never organized for the agendas of those saints. It was never a way to deify imperfect men with corrupt agendas. A closer truth would be that the gospel of Jesus Christ was restored in this church to give us a massive and yet totally intimate view of how we desperately need the Atonement in our lives, and even (and maybe especially) leaders and prophets need it, too.
Prophets exist to help us worship Christ, not themselves. Christ Himself tells us, “O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken; ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory”(Luke 24:25-27)? After that, he expounds unto His disciples all scriptures and all the words of the prophets concerning Himself. I’d argue that all doctrine and all principles given over the pulpit are absolutely secondary when compared with the exhortation to become like and follow Jesus Christ, and as Christ teaches, that’s the purpose of prophets. To not believe in prophets and to still claim to believe in Christ is to invalidate a vast majority of Christ’s words. And to do that is to invalidate Him.
I can’t do that.
If there is one thing I know more than anything it’s that Jesus Christ is the Savior and that His Atonement is both real and mighty. There is no way that I could deny that, because I have seen it work. I have seen it work in the lives of people who I never guessed it could work for. I have seen it do things for me that I had no confidence I could ever do on my own. The Atonement of Jesus Christ is beautiful and it’s incomprehensible and it’s real, and it’s real because He’s real. Because He’s real, I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I believe Him when He says prophets give us the truth. And because I believe Him, I cannot deny the truthfulness of the one church on earth that has prophets that testify of Him. To do so would be to selectively believe the Savior who chose to believe entirely in me, so much so that He died for me. I cannot imagine the pain that would give Him.
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is a living, progressing entity that represents everything the Atonement is. It represents the enabling power of the Atonement, the ability to go from humble, hard, and yes, even questionable — in our eyes — circumstances to edification and happiness, and within the walls of its chapels, we covenant to always remember the Savior. That is the key. Remembering. Remembering who we were, what we are, what we felt, and what we experienced. Hanging on to the things that bring us closer to Christ. This church does that. Sometimes I think we’re so concerned with the roots of the church that we tragically forget to look up and see the fruits of the church, even the ones we have picked and savored frequently throughout our lives. The Atonement of Jesus Christ, sacred covenants, and the ability to be with our families forever are magnificent fruits indeed, fruits that we cannot find combined anywhere else.
I am inadequate on my own. I make mistakes and I’m imperfect and I’m stubborn. But I’m staying in the church. Not because I’m a coward, a prude, an idiot, a bigot, a conformist, an illogical fool, or whatever other garbage noun society likes to throw at me to make me feel bad about believing in something. I’m staying because of Jesus Christ. He is here.
And I never want to leave Him.
This article originally appeared on igobyari.com
Comments
201 responses to “Why I Stay a Mormon When Many Friends Have Left”
I too have known this frustration seeing even Branch Presidents turn away. One in particular. Both spouses were returned missionaries with parents, grandparents and siblings active. It is so upsetting and all we can do is carry on. Whilst it is upsetting, there is never a hole left. The Church carries on and grows. They don’t. Let us just make sure that we are found worthy
As someone who spent many of his army years outsides the loving embrace of the gospel I am here today because I choose to be; because I know it is true. After getting blown up in Iraq in 2008 I spent 7 months in a hospital. After returning to my regular duty station I found myself driving to the nearest chapel one day to meet with a bishop whom I had never met spontaneously. From that meeting so full of love and understanding I began to once again attend worship services and full church membership. My life has been so much richer because of the gospels return in my life, because of the simple spirit that testifies of the truthfulness of this great and mighty work of our saviors. I stay in the church because the Holy Ghost has testified to me of it’s truthfulness. I am not brain washed or ignorant, I simply am trying to follow and maintain the spirit in my life.
I’ve lost my husband to these arguments about the church. Well, I should say my husband has lost his testimony. I still have my husband. Yay! The confirmation bias “stuff” seems to be the crux. It’s more than upsetting, it’s heart rending. I’ve dealt with this for 13 years of our marriage. It seems highly likely that this is the chaff being sifted from the wheat, but that’s sort of an insensitive thing to say to someone who is mourning their sweet spouse, and the loss of their eternal marriage and family. The only solace I’ve found is in returning frequently to my dear Heavenly Father in prayer. He seems to remain full of hope for me, my husband, and my family. AMAZING to me! He gives me instructions for how to be the spouse I need to be, and when to introduce humor… when continued conversation would just end up being destructive to our relationship. A spouse or loved one with doubts is a great opportunity to strengthen our testimonies and be the loving ROCK we were intended to be. God bless all our efforts to follow the spirit and fulfill our life missions!!!
I applaud you and have learned a lot just from this post. I learned that the Love of Christ ins not just for those who agree with my doctrinal beliefs. I knew that before, but it was confirmed in your remarks about charity towards loved ones who are different spiritually, whether in or out of the church.
Thank you SO much for your positive words.
Your letter could have been mine. Thank you for your hope. I needed it today.
We too have a close family member outside the church right now but there is one thing we all have to remember – the millennium is a very long time and many hearts will change and many wrongs can be righted. Keep praying, it’s where we find our solace and our strength.
Well said! The root of the problem is that people put their trust in “the arm of the flesh” and NOT in the “arm of the Lord”
Like you, I have had loved ones and friends abandon their beliefs and it literally breaks my heart primarily because having grown up in a home withor the gospel, I know what it is like to live without it. The storms of life will come upon all “houses” but those built upon the rock of our Redeemer will continue to stand and not be washed away. You don’t want to see your friends and family suffer. Just remember them and continue to love them and your heart will find the peace and strength it needs. Miracles take time and don’t give up hope. And remember when you feel alone, there are many of us around the world that stand with you. It takes a lot of courage to put your heart out where so many can tear it down. I hope you focus on the ones that hope to strengthen it.
Hang in there, it’s the right choice. Our Savior needs you in these latter days.
It is the end times and all around us are being sifted, separating the wheat from the chaff. All is unfolding as it has been foretold, especially that even the elect shall fall. Keep your focus and pray for those who have fallen away. You just do what you know to be right.
If the goal of Christians is to not be divisive, why not refrain from using terms like “fallen” and “right” “wheat and chaff”…? Maybe try embracing a more open hearted stance and try to see people who choose a different path as just that- different. Not wrong, or deceived, or fallen…just someone much like you, who has deliberately and consciously chosen a path that is best for their life. I assume you would like that kind of grace and respect given to you and your beliefs, so why not offer it in return?
Are we not as good as thy people? I hear the words of the Book of Mormon in this, where Alma and Amulek were rebuffed when trying to share the truth with sinners who needed repentance and they would rather believe that they had nothing to repent for.
I think the reason people use the terms wheat and chaff, or fallen, etc., is because the SCRIPTURES use these words and they are the words of the Lord. To not use them is to be ashamed of the Lord. You may recall that when Alma said that they were a “lost and fallen people” they were extremely offended at the truth. They were angry. But Alma being inspired of the Lord told the truth and did not fear the reprisal of it. He just did the will of the Lord. It is not the will of the Lord to walk on eggshells when it comes to opening our mouths. Nephi opened his mouth, a lot, and so we learn from the scriptures that we are not to be afraid.
Hebrews 4:12 says, “For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.”
Sometimes God uses sharp language when He wants to get our attention and call us to repentance. The terms you were complaining about (wheat and chaff, etc) were terms used in the bible to describe people who had found His way and people choosing their own way.
If people don’t like it they need to take it up with He who inspired those words.
I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I am so thankful to be brought to the truth. I once heard a member say that no one or anything will take her from the Church, and she remained truthful to the end. I live on a small island and it is hard when you are in the minority. You have to have a testimony that this is Christ Church and are willing to live it. Sometimes I wonder what it would be to have parents, grandparents, friends, practically everyone around you who are members of the Church, and then I am so happy that I was born where I was. This is Christ’s Church, Jesus Christ. Our testimony should be founded in Him. This is not the church of men. I totally agree with you when you said that we sometimes forget that. If it was true when we prayed about it, it is true now and we have a living prophet. He isn’t perfect but he is the Lord’s mouthpiece. When we, like Peter, take our eyes off the Saviour then we become confused and lost. Thank you for your testimony. I thrill in it. Let us not shut our mouths for they are those who need to be reminded of the Saviour’s atoning sacrifice.
I love this! Perfectly said. I too am tired of the hate and the judgment, from members of the church. It’s bad enough to hear it from unbelievers, but from those who have claimed to have had a testimony at some point is the worst. But I think those people never did have a testimony. I am grateful I do. And like you, I will never leave my God, my Savior, or the church. Ever. No matter what. And if someone doesn’t like my convictions, I don’t care. Step aside, I say.
I’m a former member, and I cannot even begin to explain how insulting it is for you to assume people who have left never had a testimony. I had a deep testimony of the church; I bore it nearly every month; I had countless people tell me how much my testimony helped theirs. That was why it hurt so much more when I felt like my testimony was based on lies. Clever lies, well-meaning lies, lies that the people telling them really and truly believed, but lies nonetheless. If a testimony is about truth, then discovering the lies meant my testimony HAD to change. I had to rebuild my testimony from scratch, and I do have one; it just no longer includes the church.
It’s great that you have convictions. I have them too. Maybe it bothers you that I and others have left your God, but I did it to follow my own.
If you have left the church then why don’t you leave the church alone. Why do you read a blog like this? If your testimony was based on a lie why wouldn’t you leave well enough alone and walk away completely? I suspect you doubt your own reasons for leaving the church and like many “former” members continue to look for evidence and others who believe the same to support your decision, otherwise why would you be offended by what was said in this blog? Don’t be a Nehor and lead people away because you no longer believe. Let it go or fix whatever has gone wrong, get right with the Lord, and come back and partake of the blessings of the restores gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ…yes your God and my God are one in the same.
Hi Rob, I am an exmormon and I think that the sentiment surrounding that ‘when people leave the church they can’t leave it alone’ is extremely reductive.
You implied that you think that we are looking for support for our position. Who doesnt look for support for thier own position? Thats the whole point of every book ever written or sold through Deseret Book. Regardless i think you are correct but not in the way you were implying.
Many of us are desperately seeking ways to maintain loving and healthy relationships with loved ones who now think we are unworthy, bad influences, possessed of the devil, unworthy of being in their families and should be divorced or disowned simply because we follow our own concience in a way that is different from what the church teaches.
People leave the church for many many different reasons and each have unique backgrounds, familial situations, support systems, coping skills and emotional baggage.
Many mormons who doubt try to hang on as long as they can but are often pushed out the door by comments like yours that seek to make the process more swiftly final.
Many of us exmormon live in part member homes. We can’t escape it. We can’t just leave it alone. It is all around us if we live in Utah. And even if we live outside of Utah often our entire network of friends and support structure are the ward family. To ask us to instantly leave it alone is a cruel thing indeed, because we often risk everything to do what we believe is right and often have nowhere else to turn.
I would have to literally be a crazy person to pretend that something that meant everything to me, something that was the absolute entirety of my identity for 34 years as a child and an adult, that I spent two years of my life on a mission preaching and countless hours living and sacrificing for, wasn’t still a part of the fabric of who I am, even though I no longer believe it to be true.
I know that it is not true but these are my people, it is a part of who I am. I embrace that with pride and humilitu, and with a responsibility to help those around me.
Also some exmormon leave because they legitimately morally can’t reconcile facts like polyandry, blood atonement, child brides, racism and other harmful and deeply hurtful aspects of mormonism. I think to vilify these people who are just trying to be good moral people and follow the tenderness of their own concience even though it will often be very unpopular amongst their family and friends is again very reductive and helps nobody.
Also your argument about not being a Nehor doesn’t make sense. You feel you have found truth in the mormon church, that’s wonderful! So you want to share that truth with everyone you come in contact with, that’s great. Feel free to send the missionaries to my house, I always like to discuss my beliefs.
People like Jennie and myself also feel we have come to a knowledge of the truth. So why wouldn’t we want to share that knowledge with others? That doesn’t make us any more agenda driven or biased than you. Instead of telling the Nehors to get lost, how about inviting them in, having a respectful conversation about diferences, and then learn to appreciate each others point of view, inherent human value, and then look for ways to agree to disagree. If anything, shouldn’t honest conversation and truth seeking strengthen our position and allow us to become more knowledgeable in what we believe and when needed amend those beliefs?
Also, Jennie may not believe in a judeo Christian God, there are many different God’s that people can believe in.
Anyway, I hope you can come to appreciate that just because an exmormon still participates in either mormon culture, theological discussions, or even continues to find inspiration or pain in some of what is said or is taught, that doesn’t mean there is a devious motive or deeply buried testimony. Usually it just means they are humans, with real lives, that still care about themselves and those around them.
In response to Chad who responded to rob, that was an inspiring response. Instead of being hurt by robs response, you provided a touching response. I am not an exmormon but I was less active at one point. But I know the feeling of being insulted and hurt by members.
I really appreciated this blog and the positive responses. No matter the responses, they are all good. We are all trying to find our path and we want others to know the truth as well. What an amazing conversation that so many are caring about others and wanting them to have the truth, being nonmormon, exmormon, or Mormon. Life is a struggle but we will do great in the end. I believe this church is true but I know when I was less active what I needed was just to be loved as I made my different decisions. That is the heart of the saviour and ever good person out there. Love everyone no matter how different their decisions are. We all are trying to do good even if sintone else thinks otherwise.
Chad thank you for sharing your thoughts on your experience, it was nice to be able to understand the other side of things. And for it to be written in a non offensive manner. Well done. I agree to disagree with you and that’s ok. You have every right to still be apart of the Mormon culture and voice your thoughts. We all just need to be more loving and forgiving on both sides.
Chad got it exactly right. For me personally, LDS doctrine and culture has seeped into every part of my life. Extracting myself fully will probably never happen, especially when I’m married to an active, believing member and most of our family are members.
I read this article because I identified with it. I spent five years desperately looking for reasons to stay, and the author’s decision was one I lived with as well for a long time. Until I realized I could find Christ elsewhere, without all the anxiety and pain the LDS church brought me.
I understand and fully support that being LDS and following its teachings leads many people to happiness and fulfillment. I am not one of them. But I also don’t think I fit into your schema of what an ex-member looks like. I’m not interested in pulling people away from the church if that is where they find peace. I AM interested in correcting misconceptions about former members, such as we never had testimonies, we left to sin, we didn’t study/pray/have enough faith. These are stereotypes that are fallen back on, but don’t actually reflect reality.
You also might want to be careful comparing strangers who leave comments on a blog to a murderer. I think that’s taking things a bit far.
That is a perfect way to describe how I feel! Thank you for standing up for us who have left. because leaving an organization you believed to be true all your life is a lot harder than finding out your bishop is inactive. unfortunately, this has changed my relationship with my family, but I refuse to be part of something so dictating and false. People who think it is true, really haven’t educated themselves and refuse to find the real truth. This is very sad.
Actually SO many of them had the strongest testimonies out there. It’s just that the words, evidences, historical inaccuracies, and such got too loud and caused too much hurt and betrayal. And they couldn’t lean back on to their testimonies that had been so shaken to the core. And so they decided to ignore a Spirit that they once felt, because they couldn’t believe in that still small voice. It’s heartbreaking to say the least. But they were once very strong members of the church. Instead of casting judgement, let’s pray mightily for them to feel love and kindness and the Spirit some day again.
This is a beautiful comment and the perfect answer to those who are struggling on both sides. I applaud your article and appreciate the sensitive nature in which it was written . We can’t let the voice of the adversary be more powerful than the voice of the Spirit. Thank you for speaking up in a considerate yet bold manner! I also love my Savior and could never deny the power of His Atonement to work miracles in our life. Kristin
Its a matter of obedience. One can have a testimony of the truth. Even the scriptures (New Testament) say that even the devils believe.
No, what is important is, obedience. We have varying levels of that, and so we have people being disobedient to the Spirit even though they had a testimony and witness. They want something new, and it is sin that leads to all of this. That is a fact. It is not merely an intellectual decision. It is sin to disobey God.
Thank you. A coherent collection of so many of my own thoughts, and the reason I am choosing to stay as well regardless of the fall-out. Your testimony has strengthened my own.
I kind of had the feeling that I was the only one bothered by what’s going on, it’s nice to see something REAL and TRUTHFUL on the Internet. Thanks:)
I found your reasoning uplifting. Yes there are people in the church but they, when they allow it, are guided by the Spirit. But more important, as you pointed out, this is Christ’s church. Thank you for persevering. We need members who understand as you do.
And what exactly are the fruits of the church? Owning nearly 2% of the state of Florida? City Creek Mall? Running elite hunting reserves? Just how much does the church devote to charity vs. how much revenue it takes in? The answer may surprise you.
What exactly is wrong with any of the things you highlighted? None of those things detract from the mission of the church. None of those things affect my personal relationship with the Lord. Why does the ownership of 2% of Florida affect your testimony? Or is it just a straw man that you pull out to rationalize your own reasons for leaving or criticizing?
Because it proves that the church has a huge amount to gain from keeping a steady base of “full tithe” paying members. A lot of mormon’s think that just because the bishop doesn’t get paid, and people pay to go on missions, that the church devotes all of its assets to charity. But they don’t. They hoard it and continue to reap huge profits, while having their members do all the work.
Just who exactly is “hoarding” these profits? The Prophet and the Apostles aren’t living a life of luxury. They devote countless hours of service and sacrifice to help others. The church provides a great deal of assistance to members and non-members alike. Your argument makes no sense.
Have you really looked into the how the Prophets and Apostles live? They make significant amounts of money from their positions in the church. Not just in stipends, but housing, travel, health care, college tuition, etc. When added up its staggering. Maybe not testimony breaking, but they live much more lavishly than most of the members ever dream. It can be disheartening when you are tithing and barely making (or not making) ends meet.
“The Prophet and the Apostles aren’t living a life of luxury.”
Yet somehow most of them can manage to own and maintain an impressive real estate portfolio: http://www.mormoninfographics.com/2013/11/land-of-lucre-real-estate-holdings-of.html
I wish that the membership of the Mormon Church would expect more from their leaders (such as full financial accountability) and would ask more questions.
Mike. The church is doing nothing nefarious with the tithes it receives from its membership, and I DARE you to prove otherwise. If you’re going to quote your references from some anti-Mormon site, don’t bother.
There’s a problem here Mike, since the Mormon Church doesn’t publish public financial records you can no more definitely prove that, “The church is doing nothing nefarious with the tithes it receives from its membership” than anyone can prove that it is.
I believe that this is what’s know as a “Mexican Standoff”. Or, if you prefer, it’s an argument from silence (which is fallacious).
That said, as LDS Thesis #45 (of the 95 LDS Theses) states, there is cause for concern here:
LDS Theis #45: When it [the LDS Church] claims, “No tithing dollars were used for this building or project – the funds came from for-profit, church-owned entities” it ignores and/or obfuscates the fact that the seed, start-up, or acquisition funds logically and ultimately came from member tithes – a fact which negates the original claim.
(see https://mormonreformationday2013.wordpress.com/2013/09/30/the-95-lds-theses/)
Actually my last was directed at Keith not Mike. My apologies.
(I’m finding this board a bit hard to navigate)
Fred, What exactly are you suggesting? the apostles of this church have large families and as many grandparents do, they maintain an interest in and help their children and grandchildren financially, as do millions of other grandparents in this country. If they can not do it through their own holdings, that would lay the burden of supporting their families from the coffers of the church. This is simply not the case.
The Lord requires of us good stewardship, we do not have to take a vow of poverty to serve him.
I believe I also told you not to bother quoting information from any anti-Mormon sources, as you have clearly done.
You attempt to use a circular argument yourself to convince me that I am using a circular argument, but I have the testimony of prophets and the witness of the Holy Ghost. I will take their words over yours.
“If they can not do it through their own holdings, that would lay the burden of supporting their families from the coffers of the church. This is simply not the case.”
Keith, you ARE aware that starting at the Stake Level some positions (such as the Stake Mission President) receive various forms of compensation don’t you? This much we know from official church sources such as:
“The Church of Jesus Christ has no full-time professional clergy at the congregational level, where all leaders serve as volunteers. Even at the highest levels of the Church, leaders who are called to full-time Church Service in order to serve a lifetime calling as special witnesses of Jesus Christ and to oversee the Church worldwide only receive a minimal living stipend.”
(see http://mormontemples.org/eng/articles/new-testament-christianity )
But that’s only the beginning, they also receive various other forms of compensation.
“I believe I also told you not to bother quoting information from any anti-Mormon sources, as you have clearly done.”
I see. So a group and website that devoted to reforming and improving the LDS Church so that it’s a better place for its members is an “anti-Mormon source”? Good to know Keith! So can I take it that ANY form of challenge or criticism is “Anti” based on this logic? If so, I hereby declare the First Vision, “Anti-Christian”.
“You attempt to use a circular argument yourself to convince me that I am using a circular argument”
Really? And exactly where is this “circular logic” that I accused you of (I didn’t) and that I myself used? I can’t seem to find it. All I’m seeing here is a baseless ad-hominem and nothing more.
“I have the testimony of prophets and the witness of the Holy Ghost. I will take their words over yours”
Really? Simply because you don’t like what I’m saying and you like what they’re saying Keith? Why if they’re not telling you the truth – or not telling you ALL the truth? What if the “spirit” that you’re feeling is nothing more than confirmation bias and a desire to avoid anything that would unsettle you?
Yet again I ask the question:
How important is to you that the truth claims of the Mormon Church are in reality true?
How about serving God and Mammon, for starters? Do we not have sufficient for our needs?
Taubman owns City Creek mall. The real estate arm of the church owns the property, the condos, etc. No tithing money is used for real estate investments.
I too have watched in horror as friends and family fall away from what I hold as true. My heart breaks, but I understand people have their agency to choose what they believe.
There is always someone who does not have the facts who is trying to justify their own behavior. I am not going to battle this out with you but as a Relief Society president I know our ward aids members and non-members with food, bill payments and job training spending more than we take in from fast offering, thus we tap into funds from the church in Salt Lake. The property owned by the church is largely farms. These farms provide food for members and non-members needing help. The first food into New Orleans after Katrina was provided by the church. This is also the case after hurricane Sandy and the tsunamis in Japan and the Philippines to mention just a few, there are thousands more. Any disaster anywhere in the world the church is there providing food and supplies. Millions has been spent inoculating children in Africa. The church is spending resources exactly the way the Savior would if he were here, relieving suffering. Money from tithing also enables many to attend college, builds chapels and temples, pays utility bills, and the list goes on and on. If you choose to leave the church that is for you to work out with the Savior when you see Him face to face but please don’t mislead others.
The fruits of the church are more Godly than malls, ownership, or property. You’ll never find many apples on a peach tree and you won’t find telestial fruit on the celestial tree. God does not need the fruit of man. The fruit she is referring to is the hearts changed and the lives touched. The essence of the church IS charity.
The fruits of the church are constant companionship of the holy spirit and personal witness of the Savior.
All the rest is just noise.
“The fruits of the church are constant companionship of the holy spirit and personal witness of the Savior.
All the rest is just noise.”
Well according to God’s Word…
“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.”
— Galatians 5:22-23 (NKJV)
However, I agreed that the LDS Church certainly generates a lot of needless noise on things that don’t matter according to scripture.
The mormon fruit I see most often is shunning of family members that are not Mormon. It is sad for people who are left without a family
Thank you. Well written. I am with you, I am staying a Mormon because I believe that is what the Savior expects of me and what I know is right. It makes me sad to see so many lose their testimonies and leave HIS church, but we have to stay stronger a stay true to our covenants.
Thank you.
Thank you for your thoughts, I love the imagery of, ‘Sometimes I think we’re so concerned with the roots of the church that we tragically forget to look up and see the fruits of the church.’ I to see people around me who are dealing with issues and questions that they don’t understand how to deal with. It’s disappointing to see people who I once saw examples of dedication fall by the side as they grapple with things they don’t understand. Thank you for your words and thoughts. There are so many forces right now trying to pull us down in a multitude of different ways that it is nice to read honest words about the struggle to keep things in the correct context.
Q: How does leaving the Mormon Church = Leaving Jesus Christ?
Unless I’m mistaken that seems to be the conclusion of this article.
Let me see now, how to put this! there is no such church as Mormon. I think that you mean The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. It may not mean leaving the Gospel. It certainly means someone is not very happy with people who belong to this church. This Church of Jesus Christ is the only true Church on the earth and is led by him. Some may feel unhappy with things that prophets do or say and so leave. A lot is lost when a person leaves and progress is slowed.
“This Church of Jesus Christ is the only true Church on the earth…”
Really? Based on what exactly? Perhaps, the word of Joseph Smith in regard to the First Vision? If so, then which of the five contradictory first hand accounts are we supposed to believe?
(see https://www.lds.org/topics/first-vision-accounts?lang=eng)
If not, then what?
“… and is led by him.”
Again, really? Then why does the Latter-day Saint Jesus contradict himself in the Standard Works? Why did he allow the LDS Church to be led astray in regard to black people holding the priesthood between Brigham Young and Spencer W. Kimball – as has now been acknowledged was the case by the LDS Church (see https://www.lds.org/topics/race-and-the-priesthood?lang=eng)
Despite the rhetoric and dogmatic assertions by members the body of evidence appears to be that the LDS Church isn’t being led by Christ. Candidly, it appears to be led by men – and not very well, I would add.
“A lot is lost when a person leaves and progress is slowed.”
I take it, based on this dogmatic assertion, that you’ve never been anything but Mormon. This statement is only true if one buys into the Mormon-centric confirmation bias that was alluded to in the article.
Outsiders would stridently disagree with this as would former member who have remained believers in Jesus Christ who now testify that the LDS Church was actually impeding rather than helping them get closer to the Savior and His Kingdom.
“Let me see now, how to put this! there is no such church as Mormon. I think that you mean The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.”
Tell you what, as soon as members the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (BTW, “day” isn’t capitalized – that would make it the Strangite LDS church not the Brighamite LdS Church) stop referring to it as such in public and as soon as the LdS Church takes down the “Mormon.org” website, as well stops trying to trademark and copyright the word “Mormon”, I’ll stop using the term.
However, as an accommodation to your objection I have done so in this reply.
Thanks.
I was raised a member of the LDS Church. I lost my faith in my early teens, spent time trying to find my way with other churches, spiritualists, and the like, and I eventually found my way back. It has taken me 20 years to make this journey, and it has given me a perspective lacking in members who have always been active.
You Fred make some interesting points, but let’s face it, your mind is closed to the possibility of the LDS Church being true. You read, and study and analyze the Church, and you can even have a solid understanding of the principles, but without faith all that understanding is meaningless. Faith is what makes church more than a Sunday book club. It brings us closer, not just to the Lord, but to other church members. Stop focusing on the little things like LDS vs LdS. In focusing on that crap, you miss the big picture. Faith is not about those little details. You either believe or don’t.
I believe the LDS Church is true.
It gives my life focus, discipline, even a culture. I can move across the country, meet random strangers, and if they’re LDS, we may not be instant friends, but it gives us a common ground, a bond, through faith. I acknowledge I am not perfect, as a person, and as a child of God, but I also know the Lord has not proclaimed His prophets infallible. Why else would He ask each of us to read, pray and contemplate His scripture? If all the members of the church who teach gospel doctrine had all the answers right, why would we need to study or think for that matter? We wouldn’t. Yet the Church asks it of us.
It’s okay to study and analyze and so forth, but here’s the kicker. If you don’t believe it, you will find ways to “prove” it’s wrong. If you do believe, you will find truth in the words of the gospel. The secret for me is I believe in Christ, and I believe that the LDS Church is the true church. I do not follow blindly, but with care and thought, and still end up in the same place, which is all Christ has asked of us.
Oh, and I’m proud to be Mormon. Use the term, yell and scream it, blog about it until the end of days. The only power in a name is the power I allow you to have over it. In this case, none. AS the famous Barney Stinson said, “I bid you good day.” “I said good day!”
“You Fred make some interesting points, but let’s face it, your mind is closed to the possibility of the LDS Church being true.”
Sure, but this is only after accepting the challenges from Mormon leaders:
“If we have the truth, it cannot be harmed by investigation. If we have not the truth, it ought to be harmed.”
— J. Reuben Clark, “The Church Years”, p 24. Provo (UT): Brigham Young University Press, edited by D. Michael Quinn
“I say to the whole world, receive the truth, no matter who presents it to you. Take up the Bible, compare the religion of the Latter-day Saints with it, see if it will stand the test.”
— Brigham Young (Second LdS president), “Journal of Discourses”; Vol. 16, p.46; also see “Discourse of Brigham Young”, p.126
“Mormonism, as it is called, must stand or fall on the story of Joseph Smith. He was either a prophet of God, divinely called, properly appointed and commissioned, or he was one of the biggest frauds this world has ever seen. There is no middle ground.
If Joseph Smith was a deceiver, who wilfully attempted to mislead the people, then he should be exposed; his claims should be refuted, and his doctrines shown to be false, for the doctrines of an impostor cannot be made to harmonize in all particulars with divine truth.
If his claims and declarations were built upon fraud and deceit, there would appear many errors and contradictions, which would be easy to detect. The doctrines of false teachers will not stand the test when tried by the accepted standards of measurement, the scriptures.”
— Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 1954, vol. 1, p. 188
Stated plainly, I have followed these admonitions found that the truth claims of Joseph Smith and the Mormon Church simply don’t stand up to scrutiny.
“Faith is what makes church more than a Sunday book club. It brings us closer, not just to the Lord, but to other church members.”
OK, but I agree with the Mormon leaders that I’ve cited: If your faith is in something that’s fraudulent your faith won’t make it true – no matter how much you WANT it to be true.
Personally, I’m interested in reality not fantasy. And I know from talking to those who have left the LdS Church that I’m not alone in this.
“Why else would He ask each of us to read, pray and contemplate His scripture?”
Well the God of the Bible that Brigham Young referred to never asked or told anyone pray about His revealed truth. Never the less, I HAVE taken the Moroni 10 Challenge and this was the result:
“I would like to bear my testimony . . .
I have diligently sought God regarding whether the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is true or not. To that end, I have studied the Bible as well as the Book of Mormon and I have prayed consistently for over 30-years. I have taken the “Moroni 10 Challenge” and I have felt an intense “burning in my bosom” many, many, many times in my life — in fact, I carry it with me every day of my life.
… and my testimony is this:
I am utterly convinced that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is a non-Christian cult, that Joseph Smith was a false prophet, as is Thomas S. Monson. Further, I am utterly convinced that the Book of Mormon is an uninspired, man created work of 19th Century fiction.
Here I stand before God and before men – I can do no other.
In the Name of Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior, amen.”
It matters to me if the truth claims of the Mormon Church are in reality true or not because my eternal fate – as well as that of my Mormon friends and family members – lay in the balance. I would hope that it matters just as much to the Mormons reading this for the same reason.
Nice name, chief. Funny how people say the most vile things about the church and then hide their names. If you really hate the church and stand for what you believe, why not let the world know who you are? I’m sure the people who agree with you will be legion.
the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints many rightly claim to be the most correct of all the churches on face of the earth because we have modern day revelation. All churches have truth in them, but Mormons–with revelation and prophets have additional guidance not found in other churches.
You also claim the church is not well run. Nothing could be farther from the truth. It is a superbly well run organization, and its
s growth rate is a testament to that obvious fact.
I don’t know why the church didn’t allow Blacks to have the Melchizedek priesthood until 1978, but the many black members of the church prove that some are capable of forgiveness and understanding while others aren’t.
What are you trying to accomplish? If you don’t like this church, don’t go – do you really think your comment is going to change anyone’s mind?
“What are you trying to accomplish?”
Please refer to the quotes from Mormon Leaders that I cited in my reply to Stew. I am challenging Latter-day Saints to do more and no less than that. If you take issue with it I would suggest that your complaint is really with J. Ruben Clark, Brigham Young, and Joseph Fielding Smith – not me.
“If you don’t like this church, don’t go – do you really think your comment is going to change anyone’s mind?”
No more than I think that the comments of the Mormon Missionaries will change the minds of investigators whose churches that they don’t go to: In some cases, yes. In other cases, no. As Mormon Apostle Orson Pratt said so well:
“. . . convince us of our errors of doctrine, if we have any, by reason, by logical arguments, or by the word of God, and we will be ever grateful for the information, and you will ever have the pleasing reflection that you have been instruments in the hands of God of redeeming your fellow beings from the darkness which you may see enveloping their minds.”
(Orson Pratt, “The Seer”, pp. 15-16)
And I will close this comment with the same comment that I ended my reply to Stew with – but in the form of a question:
How important is it to you that the truth claims of the Mormon Church are in reality true?
And BTW, who said that I don’t like the Mormon Church? I didn’t.
Now it might not change your mind, but I know many minds that have been changed from seeing comments like this.
I wish the OP well in her journey of life, but there are many valid reasons people have to leave the church. You cannot devalue their experience as they may try with yours. You can disagree with every reason, but there is no “right and wrong” when people are choosing for their own life, but many say “you are wrong, I have many reasons to stay in the church.” and then turn around and tell others that leaving is wrong (and when not saying it, believing it whole-heartedly) it is very hypocritical and condescending.
I left, not for any of the reasons mentioned in the article. I did not leave because I thought it was hard to be Mormon. I didn’t leave because I didn’t like the people or the lifestyle. I left it because I care about truth more than anything else. I cannot lie to myself, and I cannot delude myself once I’ve realized the truth.
I still live in Utah, and I plan on it for the foreseeable future. I think Mormons are great. I have nothing against them. I still keep to most of the rules their church follows, as I feel more comfortable around people who do. But the scriptures say to read the word of God and pray, earnestly, and you will know. I did. I wanted it to be true. I never felt anything. All I felt was self made feelings, and when I realized that I could not excuse the absence of God, I changed my mind.
This blog is the perfect place to discuss why you are still Mormon. Thankfully, the comment section of said blog is a great channel for critical discussion. If all you want to hear is your own opinion repeated, the LDS website is great.
Fred,
“BTW who said I don’t like the Mormon Church? I didn’t.”
Perhaps Amy inferred these words from your “testimony”: I am utterly convinced that the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is a non-Christian cult, that Joseph Smith was a false prophet, as is Thomas S. Monson. Further, I am utterly convinced that the Book of Mormon is an uninspired, man created work of 19th century fiction.
With words like “cult,” “false prophet,” and “uninspired fiction”, do you really think people are grasping if they make this assumption? Although you did not come right out and say it, your tone, choice of words, and actions (personally picking apart comments and turning them back on the author) speak volumes about your intent.
I bet you’re a real blast at parties.
Ain’t nothin’ quite like a good party is there Nate?
😉
That is not how I took it but I can definitly see where you came to that. First in my own oppinion, you do not have to loose a relationship with the savior because you have separated from his church. Nor can you. He is alway very near you and is with any of his children who cry out to him. 2nd oppinion, leaving his church may lead to the breaking of covenents you have made to him. I honestly don’t know the consequences to breaking a covent with him I suppose you will have to ask him yourself.u guess is that it never changes the way he feels about us. But it could possibly change our feelings for him. Ether way,you are write to continue to have a relationship with your savior 🙂
You find that for which you are looking: look for the good, make the appropriate investment as you do, and The Godhead will return somewhere around 100 times your investment; look for the bad and the adversary will help you find what you need to achieve the greatest amount of misery he can help to produce in your life, along with as many of the lives of all others with whom you associate, to the greatest extent possible.
Oh… And all of it, every second of good and bad, is worth it.
Great comment….and true!!!
I am touched by your courageous words and impressed and thankful for your willingness to share them.
It is heartbreaking to see those you care for and love leave the church, but we are to save ourselves first, then our families, then those within our reach. The internet has extended that reach far beyond what was previously possible.
I left the church when I was 25, and I didn’t return until I was 45. ( I am very grateful for a providential series of events that brought me back, and other than providence, I cannot explain them )Those ten years have been the sweetest years of my life. I wish the 20 years in between had been different, but my trials were my own. Only the Lord knows why I was given those particular trials. I will know someday too, but I believe the course we take is ours for a reason, even if it may seem incomprehensible why we are on a certain path.
When I came back I was very troubled by this life I had led. My bishop asked if had repented. I had. He then said–I’m sure many have heard this counsel from their bishops–“Heavenly Father knows the beginning from the end.”
To this end, and because He brought me back in amongst His sheep, I have unending optimism that those lost sheep may be gathered back in as well. They may have trials to endure, they may have to figure some things out in their own good time, but I will keep praying for them, submitting their names to temple rolls, and I will make sure that they know I am praying for them and that I love them.
I think that is what the Savoir would do. I think it’s the least we can do. Never give up. Never lose hope. The prayer you utter and the things you do may be the key driver to bringing back a lost member to full fellowship.
Love your heart in this….
But isn’t it a personal relationship with Jesus that saves us.
It’s what he did not what we try to do.
“even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have ye been saved), and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus: that in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus: for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not of works, that no man should glory. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God afore prepared that we should walk in them.”
Ephesians 2:5-10 ASV
Jesus wants a relationship with each person directly and he gave his life to close the gap.
It’s not what happens in a building that counts but what you and I allow to take place in our lives.
Thank you! This is exactly how I have felt but I know it is true and cannot/will not turn away from it!
I challenge the author to contact each of those seven people who left and personally talk to them in depth about their reasons for leaving Mormonism. When my husband and I left the church, I found there were so many assumptions made about the reasons why we left and most were dead wrong. We were both VERY active and diligent members. I found my reasons to leave in Church material such as the book series The History of the Church in which a talk by Joseph Smith is recorded where he boasts that he is better than Jesus. My testimony left that day. I also know that active members will read this comment and discredit it because after all..I sinned by leaving the church and I must have left because of sin. Neither is true. What happened is that I learned a very sad truth that the church is not what it is played to be. 2 years after leaving, I am extremely happy. But it was a difficult psychological trip walking away.
Yes! YES! I wish every member would take a more heartfelt interest in why people actually leave and not why the believe that person left. We left and it was a shock to those who knew us. We both at one point did have strong testimonies. Husband was in the bishopric, I was in YW, we had a house full of kids, cleaned the church, paid a full tithe, served in every way we could, etc. Not a single person has really reached out to us to discuss in depth why we left. But I know they all believe they know the reasons we left and its heartbreaking to me. Leaving the church was one of the most painful things I have done. I believe this is something most members do NOT understand. Its like a death or a divorce and for members that were once strong active members, leaving is not something they take lightly. Its disheartening to constantly be reminded that I never had a testimony, didn’t pray enough, just part of the separation of the wheat/tares in the last days, that we wanted to sin or not pay tithing, etc. If you genuinely care for someone that leaves, reach out to them with a sincere interest in them. Not in reactivating them or in reporting back to ward counsel, but genuinely in hearing them out and making a connection with them We aren’t all the angry-church hating, coffee drinking, less thans..
I like some of these comments very much. I value the non-combative exchange of ideas and love to hear people speak about their experience, especially when this can be done in calm, level-headed way.
It seems to me that the difficulty we as humans have with discussing differing views is a greater problem than any issue now claimed to plague either the LDS church or the ex-mormon community. I believe that more open discussion of this kind could prevent or alleviate much of the bitter disillusionment that some now experience on either side of the metaphorical divide.
Thank you so much for this wonderful article. Thank you for putting yourself out there to make a stand, despite the opposition you face. It gives me so much hope to read things like this. May God continue to bless you for your courage.
I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints also, I don’t live in Utah so all of this hasn’t been as harsh of a reality for me living in the south. I to have been heart broken at the things said and published on the internet. I have no problem if you aren’t happy with your membership in this church you are welcome to leave and find your happiness somewhere else but please don’t accuse me of being naive, brainwashed, suppressed, or any such things. I am a strong, brave, courageous woman who chooses as many of you to be a member of this church, not because of what it gives me monetarily but spiritually. I have been so blessed with many gits that I’m not sure I would have ever found in myself without the Gospel. I too have an understanding of the atonement and what it has done and can continue to do for me and others. I also have faith that through my relationship with the Savior I will always be lead to and through the hard things, I will and can receive answers to questions , not that they will all be answered in this lifetime but that I will be told whether it is right for me. We all have been promised that no matter what is asked of us we can find out for ourselves if it be right. We may not get the reason right now but we can be told yes follow or no it’s not for you. I know the gift of the Holy Ghost is something we must continue to live righteously for and if we listen we will be lead and can avoid those things that will lead us away from our Savior. I’m thankful for the knowledge that I have gained in my years on this earth and for my loving Father in Heaven who didn’t leave me abandoned but gave me a way to come back to him through my brother Jesus Christ. I am grateful to know there are others out there who feel the same as I and aren’t afraid to let their voice be heard. Prayers for you in these hard and dark times but know you aren’t alone and that we will be the light for others as we live the Gospel.
Of course the gospel of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints is true. Of course leadership is askew, from adopting the policy of baptism of illegals to it’s abandonment of the concept of free agency and divinely inspired status of the Constitution of the United States of America, to it’s financial emergence as a titan corporation, not unlike the federal government, originally put in place to secure borders and wage defensive wars.
Of course these are the last days, beginning of the tribulation prophesied by
Daniel, Isaiah and covered in Revelations.
Tell you what I do. Instead of quivering with anger, and a sense of betrayal.
I stay in the church to do whatever I can to keep it from listing further than it
already is. I was born into it, (barely) but have studied it and sworn fealty to it
as the church of Christ, redeemer of the world. And, if Christ is okay with the havoc his leaders are wreaking, who am I to gainsay? According to prophecy,
this won’t last long and Christ will clean up his own house first (SLC) upon his
imminent arrival.
I have the gospel, regardless of what the church.org may do or not do.
We all do.
The Priesthood was restored in 1836 by Joseph Smith, and to tell you the truth,
it would not have mattered to me if Joseph Smith was an alien or a biker, he did
the job he claimed to do with the Book of Mormon, as frosting on the cake of the restored gospel.
Like the good Reverend Dr. Manning, I will be on hand to welcome Christ, scriptures in one hand and Constitution in the other, with a red carpet for his feet, even if I am the only one of everyone in the whole earth. Meantime, the work to prepare to help others through the tribulation is massive. Abandonment of that is akin to becoming the grasshopper of Aesop’s fables,
which died from the snows, while the ant slept snug with plenty of supplies
through the winter.
Be the leader you wish for, be the hero you admire, walk with Christ, in his
footsteps, be a light in the darkening world.
ps-Put a copy of the constitution in your car, next to your personal protection device, having read it entirely as the inherent rights you have handed by your
Creator.
No comment.
I would just like to applaud and acknowledge the honest integrity of the owner of this board for moderator approving posts and points of view that differ from the position given in the article. From my experience this is rare on True Believing Mormon websites.
I would also like to applaud both sides for keeping the discussion civil and even toned. This too is rare!
I would to God that all interfaith discussions were like this – that would be wonderful!
Thank people! Thank you!
Wow. Thank you too. It’s so very hard to agree to disagree – especially when it happens with your own spouse. What a very interesting, confusing, enlightening, negative and positive world we live in these days. I’ve read your comments on many different sites/threads. I know what you believe and I believe you researched it out with a complete open mind and heart. I just hope that someday the ex-mos and TBM’s will be able to live in harmony. Ebony and ivory. One thought: I have read those same 4/5 quotes by our past leaders over and over and over again – cited by disaffected or ex-mos. And the same websites too. I find that very interesting indeed. P.S. I am now married to a non-believing spouse who left about 2 years ago so I’ve heard and read everything. It never gets easier, but it is slowly getting better. God bless.
Amy, I stand and applaud you for staying with your unbelieving spouse. I have read SO many heartbreaking stories where this wasn’t the case. It makes me weep whenever I hear another one.
May God richly bless and keep you Amy for your kindness and graciousness to your husband.
You’ve lifted my heart and inspired me tonight!
I am happy you are staying, and I am glad you are happy in it. I know that it can be scary to delve into the reasons why people leave the church, because it might make you face some questions you hadn’t yet, but you paint with a very broad brush, and the reasons someone would have for leaving the church are as varied as the people who make that choice.
It’s not that it’s stupid. It’s not that it’s embarrassing, and it is ANYTHING but easy. It is agonizing. We show up and are wounded, weekly. We show up asking for water and are given vinegar. We show up and address problems. We show up are encouraged by leaders to stay and be the change- and then the members around us beat us down for trying. The captain can call out “stay in the boat” but what happens when the rest of the crew is trying to throw you off? It isn’t that it is “stupid, embarrassing, or not worth it” … it is that church has ceased to be a refuge and you can only be wounded so much before you have to stop showing up so you can start to heal.
From Nigeria, and with all of my heart, I thank you for this piece.
There is another category of people reading this: those who are aware of.theae so called problems with Joseph Smith and others and who are not pushed away by it. I have a testimony that JS was called and that the fullness of the gospel was restored through him. His missteps, frailties, misstatements, and mistakes, whatever they may be do not change that. How can they? Far more people join than leave. Far more stay than leave. Everyone who leaves has his own reason and some of them feel compelled to tell the whole world what it is, and others don’t, and contrary to many who leave, we all don’t think they’ve sinned. People need to stop pushing that generalization. The early saints were persecuted more than we’ll ever understand or experience. Some of them threw up their hands and left, too. Thankfully, most didn’t. I hope to count myself among them when it’s all said a done. Great article. Keep it up.
Steve, I am Glad you have found a way to stay even though you are aware of the issues.
I think the argument that more people join than leave = church is true is a very poor argument and reason to stay though.
More people join ISIS than leave it. Doesn’t make it true.
If you stay it should be because it Ives meaning to your life, helps you be a better person, and you have studied it In both your heart and mind.
Unfortunately for me I searched, pondered, and prayed but God never gave me a witness when I asked him if Joseph marrying other men’s wife’s shortly after sending them on missions, all behind Emmas back was a good and pure thing to do.
I searched, pondered and prayed about so many things. I cried and begged God to help me see that somehow a loving father in heaven would command the abusive grooming of children to be married secretly to old men. That confirmation never came.
Same process for a hundred other issues. So I felt for me the church was no longer uplifting, no longer gave me meaning or made me a better person. So I left.
“Far more people join than leave. Far more stay than leave.”
First, this statement is untrue. There are FAR more Ex-Mormons and this has ALWAYS been the case: http://packham.n4m.org/morexmos.htm
Second, even if it were true, so what?
Mormonism makes up less that 1/2 of 1% of the total world population. It’s growth is essentially flat (see http://www.sltrib.com/lifestyle/faith/2500019-155/christianity-shrinking-in-us-mormon-numbers) and has one of the lowest rate of active members of major religions (about 30% in the United States around 15% elsewhere – see http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/lifestyle/57369318-80/church-lds-percent-growth.html.csp).
Arguing numbers to support Mormonism doesn’t make for a very strong case.
The New Testament was not written by Jesus’ contemporaries. It was written well after his death and after anyone who knew him would have been able to write about him.
Besides that point…your post reads like basic Mormon arrogance and a lack of critical thinking. To regard others as lost when they claim to have found their truth is inarguably arrogant. They may think of you as lost or as not having the truth. You’re trying to “convince” them of something with this post as much as you claim they are with theirs.
I’m saddened to see so many of the misconceptions about people who leave perpetuated in this post. One of the most painful experiences in leaving the church is the smear campaign against those who leave. Most members would be surprised to know why people actually question the truth claims from the church.
John Dehlin did a great presentation about being kind and empathetic to friends and family who leave, and I wish every member I knew would see it. It’s not anti-Mormon, but it will help you understand.
http://mormonstories.org/top-5-myths-and-truths-about-why-committed-mormons-leave-the-church/
Josh,
I agree that members need to be more compassionate toward people who leave. But I will say that as an active member I have not personally witnessed a smear campaign against a person who has left the church. I am sure they happen but I have not nor do I know anyone who has conducted themselves that way. However, when I left the church 15 years ago, I was the first to launch a smear campaign against my active friends, family, and church leaders. And I was joined by other friends who left. I hated active Mormons and did everything I could to tear them down. I am so sorry for that behavior. I am also so happy to have found my testimony again and to feel the spirit that leads me to more compassionate behavior again.
Becky:
So you left and then went back? How does one un-ring the bell? Objective truth does not change. I must assume you left for reasons initially that did not arise from an understanding that the truth claims were false . Correct? The truth claims are still false. Or does truth not matter?
Key:
Truth does matter. I left because I wanted proof that the Book of Mormon is true and that the negative claims against the church were untrue. The Internet and a few friends gave me some answers that caused me to leave the church. A few years later when my life was a mess, the only place I could turn was to God. During that time of searching I was lead back to the church and realized that I was trying to answer a question of faith by looking for logical explanations. That isn’t possible. I am happy with my decision to return. Thanks for asking.
Glad to hear that you turned back to God, but the truth is if you have a relationship with God it is in spite of your LDS faith, not because of it. You can know God in a Christ-centered church without all the baggage, and frankly, blasphemy of Mormonism. I would challenge you to pray about it and even attend a non denominational church to see if it is not much better than what you are doing now. I would think you would like trying out a Christ centered as opposed to a Joseph Smith centered church given your previously acknowledged concerns about the veracity of Mormonism and the Book of Mormon. TRUTH MATTERS.
Your words and change of heart give me hope. Thank you.
The smear campaign I specifically refer to is the language used across the pulpit, primarily from general conference, towards those who leave. In the last conference we were compared to Judas. The reasons they give for people who leave are also jabs at their character. According to the general authorities, people leave because 1)they want to sin, 2)they didn’t understand the gospel 3) they never had a testimony. If you see the link from my original comment, none of these are commonly cited reasons, but instead are a way to think less of the person who left.
Josh, your comment reminded me of LDS Thesis #6 which says:
LDS Thesis #6: LDS Church leaders denounce and scorn former members and encourage members to do the same. To cite one example, the chapter in the official church curriculum “Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith” entitled “Beware The Bitter Fruit of Apostasy” (pp. 315-326) is a demonstration of how church leaders do this.
And I would encourage the readers to actually look up and read the referenced official LDS Church manual where you will find language like this:
“Those who apostatize lose the Spirit of God, break their covenants, and often persecute members of the Church.”
“From apostates the faithful have received the severest persecutions. Judas was rebuked and immediately betrayed his Lord into the hands of His enemies, because Satan entered into him.”
“When once that light which was in them is taken from them they become as much darkened as they were previously enlightened, and then, no marvel, if all their power should be enlisted against the truth, and they, Judas-like, seek the destruction of those who were their greatest benefactors.”
“What nearer friend on earth, or in heaven, had Judas than the Savior? And his first object was to destroy Him.”
“There have always been, in every age of the church, those who have been opposed to the principles of virtue, who have loved the gain of this present world, followed the principles of unrighteousness, and have been the enemies of truth. … Those who have associated with us and made the greatest professions of friendship, have frequently been our greatest enemies and our most determined foes; if they became unpopular, if their interest or dignity was touched, or if they were detected in their iniquity, they were always the first to raise the hand of persecution, to calumniate [make false charges about] and vilify their brethren, and to seek the downfall and destruction of their friends.”
Wow! According to this official LDS Church teaching curriculum these apostates and critics are a pretty bad bunch aren’t they? Any person with a lick of common sense would do well to avoid them wouldn’t they? So what should you do for protection? Thankfully, the curriculum has the answer to that too:
“Orson Hyde, a member of the Quorum of the Twelve, reported: “Joseph the Prophet … said, ‘Brethren, remember that the majority of this people will never go astray; and as long as you keep with the majority you are sure to enter the celestial kingdom.’”
So there you have it: Avoid those bitter apostates and critics and stay with the faithful and you will be safe and secure!
The simple fact of the matter is this: LDS Church leaders denounce and scorn former members and encourage members to do the same. And IMO, it needs to stop.
And I encourage the reader to double check and verify these citations from the curriculum itself: https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-joseph-smith/chapter-27?lang=eng
Folks we’re not making this stuff up – it’s real.
Yes. My family is kind to me despite what they’re told at church, not because of it.
The 95 LDS thesis is an anti-Mormon website that attempts to convince the naive that they are really concerned about reforming the church based upon their discovery of lies and false doctrine. I can think of 95 ways that they are full of fudge.
I see. So everything is just hunky dory in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and there is absolutely no need to change or room for improvement at all?
I believe that the citations in the 95-Theses, which, oh by the way, are entirely from the Standard Works and the works of past and present Mormon Leaders clearly indicate otherwise.
Given the level of dissent and disaffection – as well the as flat growth numbers – in the modern LDS Church I must respectfully disagree with you.
I believe that if all the 95 LDS Theses were implemented the Mormon Church would be a MUCH better place – and I’m not alone in that belief.
I’m sorry that our desire to see the Mormon Church improve itself upsets you so much that you have to engage in polemics and pejoratives.
But what the hey, you have agency, knock yourself out!
“I can think of 95 ways that they are full of fudge.”
OK, please get started. I’ll get a pen and paper and take notes.
Thanks for helping us make them even better! We love constructive criticism, don’t you wish that LDS Church did?
Ok. Fred. Let me go get my list. If I’m not back in five minutes….just wait longer.
That seems sarcasm to me for some reason . . .
I’m beginning to believe that you don’t have a list at all.
Isn’t that interesting? It’s almost as if you just made it all up as a form of over the top overheated rhetoric with no substance behind it.
So tell you what, until I see that list I’m going to believe that the 95 LDS Theses are substantive and make some very good points.
Thanks.
You do that, and good for you.
I disagree with much of your post. It’s not easy to leave the church, and the reasons you listed are as simple as the explanations. Long story short I am one of those RM, temple married, people who left. A few years back I had to take a good hard look at my life and be honest with myself. That look lead to the conclusion that one of the things I needed to get out of my life was Mormonism. The great thing is that was my choice, and for me it has been amazing. But that is not why I am posting, I am postingbecause like you I make up Star Wars plots and characters don’t know if there is money in it but I would pay for someone to proof read my Star Wars story, and then I would pay to have it turned into a Youtube fan film. You’re an English major, maybe you could be a muse and proof reader for star wars nerds like me.
It is all a fraud concocted by a. 19th century con man. You would do well to learn the truth now rather than devote additional years to it, and then learn the truth. Many have wasted their entire lives perpetuating a fraud.
“You would do well to learn the truth now rather than devote additional years to it, and then learn the truth.”
I have been studying Mormonism since 1978. That’s 37-years. I’m thinking that devoting any additional years to the search isn’t going to surprisingly and unexpectedly yield a different result.
As Mormon Historian Grant Palmer said so well, “Whenever I turn over a rock I find something else [that doesn’t favor Joseph Smith or Early Mormonism’s claims]” I haven’t seen the study of true Mormon History lead many into the LDS Church – in fact, it always seems to have the opposite effect.
“It is all a fraud concocted by a. 19th century con man.”
Kay, I have simply stated where the body of evidence (not to mention the witness of the Spirit) has lead me. I’m sorry that upsets you.
And I apologize Key. I thought that i was replying to another thread and misinterpreted both the context and intent of your post. I also thought that you were Kay – a True Believing Mormon – who’s already challenged me on this discussion board.
Despite my silly boneheadedness I concur 100% with everything that you’ve said.
And again, my apologies for being so “wooly headed”.
No problem. I think your comments above are thoughtful, kind, and persuasive to those that are seeking the truth. Kudos to you!
Thank you. That’s very kind and gracious of you Key!
Well, Key, I contend that you are the fraud, and will take your advice about not devoting any additional time to you.
Ok. Do yourself a favor and research Joseph Smith. Then get back to me.
Well, golly gee. I don’t know. The only thing I’ve read the past 10 years is my boy scout manual and my Duty to God booklet. I have studied the life of Joseph diligently. My view of him is markedly different from yours, but you are entitled to yours as I am mine, so I wouldn’t hold my breath on the getting back to you.
Fred, I have read every word that you have written here in the comments section. I only have one question for you. Why do you even waste your time coming to this blog? Why? I can only come up with one reason, since you are a non-conformer of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, and that is to harass or degrade those that willingly accept and embrace it. I have a friend who is an American and uses all his daily efforts in harassing and degrading Americans who are patriotic to this country. He was born an American, grew up as an American and has benefited quite a bit for being an American. But somewhere along the way, he started reading Anti-American literature and now has become a full fledged Anti-American and will do everything he can to destroy it. He can’t leave it alone. He can’t go his merry way and live his life without trying to destroy others. It is his life’s mission to harass, degrade and destroy that which he was a member of – a citizen of the United States of America. I let “him rave on so that men shall know him mad”. I am grateful for the Constitution of this land and I am thankful for my membership and citizenship in this great country along with my membership in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. I love this church, I love the prophets and apostles and I love Jesus Christ.
But the thing is Fred is right. An honest effort to know the truth can only result in the conclusion that it was all made up by a deviant con man and fraud. And the fraud continues, and the fraud is disgusting. Those that peg their lives to the fraud are to be pitied, as it is a terrible thing. Fred seeks to proclaim the truth and I support him 100%!
Well that’s disappointing, we were staying so nicely even toned and civil and then an ad-hominem comes through.
(sigh)
Oh well . . .
That said, RC Farnsworth, if you spoke truly when you wrote, “I have read every word that you have written here in the comments section,” then why are you asking questions that have already been answered and engaging in baseless conjecture and ad-hominem arguments? This is truly disappointing.
As I stated previously:
“It matters to me if the truth claims of the Mormon Church are in reality true or not because my eternal fate – as well as that of my Mormon friends and family members – lay in the balance. I would hope that it matters just as much to the Mormons reading this for the same reason.”
(reply to Steve Pidasso)
And, again, I have the full backing of Mormon leaders on this:
“. . . convince us of our errors of doctrine, if we have any, by reason, by logical arguments, or by the word of God, and we will be ever grateful for the information, and you will ever have the pleasing reflection that you have been instruments in the hands of God of redeeming your fellow beings from the darkness which you may see enveloping their minds.”
(Orson Pratt, “The Seer”, pp. 15-16)
“If we have the truth, it cannot be harmed by investigation. If we have not the truth, it ought to be harmed.”
— J. Reuben Clark, “The Church Years”, p 24. Provo (UT): Brigham Young University Press, edited by D. Michael Quinn
“I say to the whole world, receive the truth, no matter who presents it to you. Take up the Bible, compare the religion of the Latter-day Saints with it, see if it will stand the test.”
— Brigham Young (Second LdS president), “Journal of Discourses”; Vol. 16, p.46; also see “Discourse of Brigham Young”, p.126
“Mormonism, as it is called, must stand or fall on the story of Joseph Smith. He was either a prophet of God, divinely called, properly appointed and commissioned, or he was one of the biggest frauds this world has ever seen. There is no middle ground.
If Joseph Smith was a deceiver, who wilfully attempted to mislead the people, then he should be exposed; his claims should be refuted, and his doctrines shown to be false, for the doctrines of an impostor cannot be made to harmonize in all particulars with divine truth.
If his claims and declarations were built upon fraud and deceit, there would appear many errors and contradictions, which would be easy to detect. The doctrines of false teachers will not stand the test when tried by the accepted standards of measurement, the scriptures.”
— Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 1954, vol. 1, p. 188
As I stated plainly in the aforementioned reply to Steve Pidasso:
“If your faith is in something that’s fraudulent your faith won’t make it true – no matter how much you WANT it to be true.
Personally, I’m interested in reality not fantasy. And I know from talking to those who have left the LdS Church that I’m not alone in this.”
And RC Farnsworth, I will again close with the same question that I have posed repeatedly at or near the end of my replies on this board:
“How important is it to you that the truth claims of the Mormon Church are in reality true?”
Finally, in summary, and BTW, your speculation and innuendos are fundamentally flawed: Even though I have a lifetime of Mormon friends and family members I have never been a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I have no uncorrelated Mormon or disaffected Ex-Mormon agenda. I have stated plainly what my motives and intentions are, I’m sorry that you find them unacceptable and/or distasteful.
Fred,
I am sure you and Key have good intentions. Since you feel that so many have been led astray by a conman then you can take comfort in the fact that Jesus Christ will return to Earth one day and teach all of us the truth. He will save us from the conmen. You really don’t need to worry so much about it. I left the church 15 years ago and was so desperate to convince everyone around me that they were believing something that wasn’t true; but that isn’t necessary. The church teaches wonderful things even if they don’t completely coincide with your own beliefs. Everything will be sorted out in the end which is probably very near.
Becky:
You are making some very big assumptions that have no basis in Biblical scripture. The Bible does not teach universal salvation, which is essentially what you describe. That is a Mormon concept. It was made up like the rest of it.
The fact is the choices we make now will have eternal consequences. We do not get a do over. That is why the truth is so important. We must act on it now.
the Book of Mormon doesn’t teach universal salvation, rather it teaches universal resurrection. this is not the same thing as salvation.
We also hold that this life is the time to repent, unless there was no opportunity in this life. Luke mentions baptism for the dead, but other denominations choose to ignore it.
“Since you feel that so many have been led astray by a conman then you can take comfort in the fact that Jesus Christ will return to Earth one day and teach all of us the truth.”
Well, if one believes the Bible there’s a problem here Becky. The Bible doesn’t say that Jesus is coming back to sort everyone out and save everyone – that was the purpose of the incarnation. Rather, the Bible gives us quite a different picture of Christ’s second coming:
Revelation 21 (KJV)
21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
If Joseph Smith did indeed teach another god, another Jesus, and another gospel that means that Mormonism is based on idolatry because it’s been teaching it’s adherents to worship a false god, an idol – and that’s a big problem, as the above verse clearly states.
“The church teaches wonderful things even if they don’t completely coincide with your own beliefs.”
Well does Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, and just about every other religion. So what? This argument only matters if you believe that salvation is based on works that come from a result of wonderful teachings.
Again, this isn’t what the Bible teaches. Rather it teaches:
“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.”
— Ephesians 2:8-9 (KJV)
“Everything will be sorted out in the end which is probably very near.”
Again, the Bible teaches clearly that Jesus is coming again to judge not sort everything and everyone out so they can be saved. See above.
Thank you, Fred. I have developed my own personal relationship with Jesus Christ and the burning testimony I feel is not of an organized church or its leaders. It is a burning testimony of Jesus Christ. I don’t believe my works will save me. Alma 26:12: Yea, I know that I am nothing; as to my strength I am weak; therefore I will not boast of myself, but I will boast of my God…” I know that it is only through Jesus Christ that o can be saved and I believe He knows that I have worked hard to develop a relationship with Him. The works I do as a member of the LDS church are not so I can be saved. I do them because they remind me of the Savior and keep me close to Him. I believe that everyone who believes in Jesus Christ will be saved. Not just Mormons, evangelicals, etc. No one on this earth has a perfect understanding of His nature yet. When He returns to earth we will understand. Some of us will reject it and perish and some of us will accept it because we have worked so hard to know Him in the life and I believe that those people will be saved. The church that will be established when he returns will not be a particular denomination. It will be His church. I u fed stand that. I know you don’t agree with me and that’s ok. I also know that you are working on your own personal relationship with him and I think that is wonderful. I feel His love in my life everyday as I know you do too. That is all I wS trying to say. Sorry if I have a lot of errors. I’m on my phone and between autocorrect and my cracked screen I’m sure this is full of mistakes. 🙂
Well Becky since I believe that it IS possible to find, believe in, and follow Jesus Christ DESPITE the false teachings and errors of the Mormon Church I find it hard to disagree with what you’ve said.
That said, to do so one must reject much LdS Church dogma, doctrine, and scripture and essentially be a “Shadow Mormon” (a closeted uncorrelated, disbelieving Mormon) but it IS possible.
May the peace of the Jesus Christ of the Bible reign and rule in your life and in your household Becky.
How do you get a temple recommend if you do not sustain the LDS prophet? Without one you are a second class citizen in your own church. How about attending a church where you will be fully embraced and cared about just as you are, where you are not second class?
I’ve been through this. No matter how badly, personally betrayed you feel by someone leaving the church, it’s important to be kind, forgive them, and get yourself back to the temple. The peace of the temple reminds me what I’m staying for. 🙂
Former Mormon here, I want to just say I respect you and whatever choices you make that are right for you. I don’t mind if you’re fully committed to your faith, if none of the issues bother you and if you spend the rest of your life living it. It’s your life to live and I want to respect that.
The only thing I’d like to ask is that you return the favor for me, and those like me. I don’t need to be reconverted, I don’t need to be shown apologetic essays that denounce critical essays and their authors, and I don’t want you making inaccurate assumptions that I’m lazy or want to sin or just can’t handle the church anymore. I’ve done this because it is what is right for me. It’s what I feel in my heart. It gives me a sense of peace, happiness and let’s me be true to myself.
I think if all of us former members stopped calling you brainwashed or other unkind things (and I apologize, I’m certainly guilty of that on occasion) and all of the believers accepted that non-believers are still good people who are living the best way they know how, we would all get along quite well.
There is no need to divorce someone because they stopped believing in your church or kick out your kids because they stopped believing or give up on a friend because they no longer believe it. God or no God, we can all agree that doing that is immoral. Anyway, sorry for the ramble. It’s okay to be Mormon. It’s also okay to not be Mormon. I think if we could all realize that it would make the subject a much better one.
First of all Thank You so much for your comments, i cannot imagine what you have gone through, the only thing I would love to add is, LDS Church is true, even our imperfections as members, I really aplaude your decission to stay for Jesus Christ, He is the head of it, I have never been treated or felt like you or another of you, and I say I am sorry on behalf of the membership of the Church, but What I really know is that God lives, Jesus Christ is his son, through his atonement all mankind could return to their present as families, we have a Prophet, President Thomas S. Monson Is our living Prophet, if there is any error on this labor of love is because of the imperfections of men but God’s infinite love will testify and always raises up when we really need it, do not worry about haters or anti Mormon, we must loved and pray for them, for this shall know ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another…
Insofar as the LDS Church and their prophets are concerned, how do you know these things? It must be based on feelings as the real facts indicate something else.. Satan can and does masquerade as an angel of light. We are to test all things and hold fast to that which is true. Have you really tested the historical truth claims of the church? Have you examined the evidence? Do you permit yourself to thoroughly investigate contrary views? If not, how can you know you have the truth? If not, why would you seek to persuade others to it when you really do not know it yourself?
Yes, Fred, Satan can impersonate and angel of light, and you have been deceived by him.
Umm, I’m Key not Fred. I was the one who talked about Satan masquerading as an angel of light. I guess Satan deceived you as to who I am. So you are the deceived one, as illustrated here. No?
Honestly this really helped me a lot. Thank you so much.
Dear All, I have read this blog post and all the comments and can see many different paradigms displayed. I think the important thing is not to say that someone is right and some one else is wrong. For me, there is no one truth. Black and white thinking can be very dangerous. Rather people find different faiths that speak to them. The problems begin when one feels theirs is right and the other is wrong. My own view is that ALL religion is man made. God (if he exists) does not pop down to earth and give concrete evidence about what is the Truth. Feelings are not facts. And because of how we process information, one person’s truth can be another persons lies. Can I suggest that if someone finds joy within Mormonism that is respected. Like wise, if someone is deeply un happy within Mormonism and they leave that is respected. Religious tolerance includes the right to leave a religion and still be shown respect. Like wise whist leaving – despite the evidence you may have – if someone stays they do it because of how the religion still speaks to them. Many people (especially the vulnerable) would struggle without their LDS community, society can be a tough place. I feel it is cruel to try and de-convert some who would not cope without it. I left after being a life long LDS member for 38 years. I was A1 faithful but It made me miserable and I experienced all kinds of spiritual, emotional and even sexual abuse within its walls. But I refuse to be bitter. I accept my losing the love I once knew from my family and friends. That was the price I paid for leaving and its not fare but I can spend my life resenting it or simply accepting it and moving on. However, I have made new friends and my own children and husband are all by my side. We left together. We do all we can to re-define the word apostate to believing LDS around us. Much more peace would be had in the world if we could live and let live. I wish everyone whatever their faith journey peace and happiness. I hope your blog gives you the opportunity to work through the difficult things you face. With love, Karen
Very well said, Karen. People who just want to be right will not like your comments because they only want people to believe exactly how they do. I happen to be active in the church but I agree with what you said about letting everyone live peacefully in their own faith journey. Thank you.
The flaws of the prophets and leaders were never an issue for me as I went through my faith crisis. It was primarily 1: The deception of the church in not being honest about the issues. 2: The doctrinal and Book of Mormon Issues (Anachronisms of horses, silk, steel, swords, temples, etc.), 1769 KJV errors copied, deutero-Isaiah, Matthew 26 double translations that didn’t match, textual and story matches from The Late War, First Book of napoleon, and View of the Hebrews). There is a reason why most historians who become educated in biblical theology and biblical history end up leaving the church. I still attend church, but do so more for the social support system. I still read the scriptures, but as much as I have prayed for over a year, and struggled with my faith, when I look inside I know I just cannot ever believe the Book of Mormon and Book of Abraham are literal or historical anymore.
False things deserve to be torn down.
The Book of Mormon, D&C, Pearl of Great Price, & temple ceremony are *ALL* plagiarized. That isn’t some weird coincidence, it is irrefutable evidence that the LDS church is not only the creation of man, but of a serial plagiarist.
Holding to the faith as these things are exposed is not honorable, it’s misguided.
You can argue that the church produces good fruit, but you have to do it while ignoring the financial, emotional, and in some cases even sexual abuses that occur in the church. You can’t have it both ways. The good fruits of members can’t be lauded while ignoring the bad.
So at the end of the day, you have to ask yourself this: is this God’s church?
If the answer is yes, then it’s worth all the rubbish. Unfortunately it has been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that it cannot be what it claims.
You have placed your confidence in the arm of the flesh, to an institution created by the cunning craftiness of men mingled with scripture.
Rationalizing away all the problems is not faith, it is failing to value plain and precious truth.
Rob, I would be interested in seeing your sources for the plagiarism claim.
Just wanted to say thanks for having the courage to not only write out your thoughts and feelings, but then to post it, despite the negative reaction you knew would come. Just remember, you never stand alone! There are literally millions of people who feel you do, and millions of people who are searching for what you have. Thank you for your courage!
When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 1 Corinthians 13:11
Key and Fred, thanks for your personal “opinion “. For that is all it is, your opinion. There are a trillion opinions out there on the blogosphere about religion, enough to make your head explode. Your conclusion and opinion doesn’t mean a hill of beans to me nor mine to you. Truth only comes from one source and that is God. Not from me and certainly not from you. I will take God’s word and truth over yours anyday of the week. I will let God tell me the truth and that is all I need because in the end it doesn’t affect you or anyone else, only me. And my personal relationship with God has nothing to do with you or your opinions…….
TEST ALL THINGS, hold fast to that which is true. I have tested the truth claims of the church and they do not hold up. Have you tested the truth claims? Impossible to know the truth if you do not seek the truth.
RC Farnsworth, I commend you for insisting on more than other peoples opinions on the type of weighty, potentially eternity impacting issues that we’re discussing here. That’s healthy, good, and I not only take no issue with it, I applaud it!
However, I’m troubled by any epistemological system that relies on solely, internal , subjective evidence and refuses to consider external, objective evidence. For example, when you say, “I will let God tell me the truth and that is all I need because in the end it doesn’t affect you or anyone else, only me” that’s a concern.
My brother converted to Mormonism based on, “God telling him the truth” in 1970. Before that we had exactly five (5) Mormons in my family of origin (my brother was converted by our Mormon uncle). As a result of that decision there are now over seventy Mormons in my family covering four generations. Clearly my brother’s decision affected more than just himself didn’t it?
What if my brother was wrong?
What if, for example, he had an “inner witness” from another god – say the Muslim god, for example? Consider this:
“For me, I believe that Muhammad was a prophet because of the Qur’an–because I read it, and in my own estimation after reading it, reflecting on it, and praying about it, I found in myself an unwavering belief that the Qur’an is without a doubt revealed by the Lord of the Worlds, by the Almighty God.”
(see http://forums.catholic.com/showpost.php?s=c37f3f001ea2276b7b74b15a8cf740c6&p=4462691&postcount=3 )
Sound familiar? Just substitute “Joseph Smith” where it says, “Muhammad” and “Book of Mormon” where it says “Qur’an” and you have the archetypical Mormon Testimony which simply mirrors the “stock” Muslim Testimony known as the Shahada:
“I bear witness that there is no god but Allah, and I bear witness that Mohammed is the servant and Messenger of Allah.”
(the “Shahada”)
I would humbly suggest to you that the Latter-day Saint epistemological system is fatally flawed and far more is needed than, “I will let God tell me the truth”. And, as previously stated, clearly much more rides on this than just you – such decisions have a huge ripple effect on the lives of others too.
What if you’re wrong?
Something to think about I should think . . .
Fred. you stated, “My brother converted to Mormonism based on, “God telling him the truth” in 1970. Before that we had exactly five (5) Mormons in my family of origin (my brother was converted by our Mormon uncle). As a result of that decision there are now over seventy Mormons in my family covering four generations. Clearly my brother’s decision affected more than just himself didn’t it?” I believe you are missing one ingredient in this equation of yours. The seventy Mormons that you refer to from your family I can almost bet that they were not “forced” beyond their will to join the church – now were they? They, as it should be, have the right to direct their own lives. They should be the masters of their own destiny – correct? I stated, “I will let God tell me the truth and that is all I need because in the end it doesn’t affect you or anyone else, only me”. For example, (for argument’s sake only) if baptism is essential for salvation, and you get baptized and I don’t – who suffers? Me or you? The truth about baptism does not affect you and your relationship with God because and due to the fact that I did not get baptized. It affects only me and my salvation – not you!!! So therefore, my statement is correct. Then you state, “What if you’re wrong?” Still, if I am wrong – does that affect you and your salvation? Absolutely NOT. However, I have family members that are in the same boat as you are. They are very defiant, both in their conversations and actions toward those members of the family who are members of the church. The only thing that I say verbally is, (if I say anything at all) “If this is what your Heaven and Salvation teaches, (meaning the vehemency of their constant attacks towards others) and if this is the kind of people that will be there (in your described Heaven), then, I don’t want any part of it at all. None.”
While it’s true that the seventy Mormons I referred to in my post weren’t coerced into being baptized in the Mormon Church it’s also true that as BIC (Born Into the Covenant) Mormons they have never known anything else. Further, they have been doctrinated with the same type of confirmation denial that is so apparent in this article and the ensuing comments since they were in diapers.
Finally they are family emeshed and view leaving the church as a betrayl of not only their covenants with God but the state of their eternal family. And who wants to betray their family?
Again, if this is all you know and all you’ve been told this is the only reality you know. However, this isn’t reality at all, merely indoctrination – and the Mormon Church is GREAT at it.
At the end of the day, for all the theoretical talk of agency in Mormonism there ain’t much in practice!
We’re all indoctrinated with something Fred. I’ve never found an equal to what the Mormon church provides me, and believe you me, I looked around before I settled here.
“We’re all indoctrinated with something Fred. I’ve never found an equal to what the Mormon church provides me, and believe you me, I looked around before I settled here.”
Then could you tell me what other churches you attended that teach their members that leaving the church violates their covenants with God and is a betrayal of their family?
Thanks.
Sorry. No. None of your business. I am a Mormon now and that is all that counts. Good luck and good bye.
I have been in several churches and none of them have indoctrinated their members with these teachings. Not one.
Respectfully, I doubt that any of the other churches that you investigated did either.
I know of no churches that do other than than the Mormon Church.
Heavenly Fathers Church is still the right path to take to gain all the blessings that he has said that are there for all of us to be a part of. These are challenging times of instant communication, a global village of ideas that seem to come from everywhere and nowhere.
In this world there are so many people who have been hurt through their own choices or by the choices of others and will be ready to express their hurt through the tapping of keys without thought of the pain that they are causing others as long as they are letting go of their own.
I have had many challenges in my life in and out of the Church. What sustains me is that I have a knowledge of a loving and understanding Heavenly Father, that understands me and my struggles and is willing to be patient with me. I do not blame others for my faults I can only blame myself and have the courage that I can change. I am so grateful for the peace of mind and the stillness I gain from the teachings of Heavenly Fathers gospel. I know that this is his Church I have had too many experiences to say otherwise. All I can say is ‘be patient’ and know that Heavenly Father loves all of us and wishes the best for all of us.
John Chapter 14. is a great chapter for anyone to read.
The Internet is neither inherently good or bad. The only reason “these are challenging times” with the Internet is because ithe LDS church isn’t true. If it were true the Internet and access to information at your finger tips would be the LDS church’s best friend. Growth would be exploding. But instead the information proves the Systematic lies spanning generations. The LDS church has no answer to the truth. It will continue to lose members that honor the truth. Scary days for those that once had complete control over the dissemination of information to its members.
@Keith, you wrote:
“Nice name, chief. Funny how people say the most vile things about the church and then hide their names. If you really hate the church and stand for what you believe, why not let the world know who you are? I’m sure the people who agree with you will be legion.”
This appears as a reply to one of my comments without a reply button – which is why I’m replying here.
This is an odd response indeed! Not only am I using my real name here, unlike you, I’m using my full real name as well. So the world does indeed know who I am.
But as I was saying about ad-hominem arguments . . .
“All churches have truth in them, but Mormons–with revelation and prophets have additional guidance not found in other churches.”
Well other churches – including mainstream Christian churches – have prophets and ongoing revelation as well. If you think that those qualities make the Mormon Church special and unique then you’ve been misinformed.
“its s growth rate is a testament to that obvious fact.”
It’s growth rate is now essentially flat and is now down to “natural growth” – that is growth from members having children who have children. (see http://www.sltrib.com/lifestyle/faith/2500019-155/christianity-shrinking-in-us-mormon-numbers)
“I don’t know why the church didn’t allow Blacks to have the Melchizedek priesthood until 1978”
Oh I don’t really think that there’s any mystery is there? The historical evidence is pretty strong that Spencer W. Kimball made the change due to economic, political, and social pressure. (see http://beggarsbread.org/2013/08/19/what-we-do-know-about-the-1978-revelation/)
Thank you.
@Kim, there was no reply button next to your post so I’m forced to post down here instead. I apologize for the inconvenience.
“With words like “cult,” “false prophet,” and “uninspired fiction”, do you really think people are grasping if they make this assumption?”
So the argument is that the use of loaded words – and, yes, I acknowledge that these are loaded word – equals “I don’t like’ or, as some have suggested on this board, “I hate”? Do I have this right? If so, let’s consider these words shall we?
Joseph Smith – History 1
18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.
19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”
So can we assume that God (assuming that this was indeed inspired) and/or Joseph Smith (assuming that it wasn’t) doesn’t like those apostate non-Mormon churches out there? Or, can we assume that they hate them?
In actual fact, not only do I find much in the Mormon Church to admire despite my strong feelings toward its current condition and teachings, I am part of a group that’s lobbying for its reform. Given enough reform and change I might even consider joining the Mormon Church.
I’ve said it many times to and I will say it again now: Disagreement doesn’t mean “hate”.
“Although you did not come right out and say it, your tone, choice of words, and actions (personally picking apart comments and turning them back on the author) speak volumes about your intent.”
Strong arguments and rebuttals don’t equate “dislike” or “hate” either. You’re mistaken.
And BTW, telling others what their intent is rather than asking is presumptive and rude – just so you know.
Thanks.
This post inspired me to write my own with the same title.
http://thoughtsofasimplecitizen.blogspot.com/2015/08/why-i-stay-mormon-when-many-friends.html
Dear Ariana,
I consecrated 40 years of my life to the church. I helped build testimonies. I served authentically and lived with integrity. I sacrificed. When I came to the realization through study and personal revelation that the Christ I knew and strived to emulate was not really leading the church, I cried my eyes out. I grieved, and felt overwhelming sadness and terror. Oh my gosh my family and church friends will now think I am a tare and shun or pity me! So I stayed a little longer. And I served and I taught gospel doctrine. I stayed until the black spots I was getting in my vision just before teaching became too much, and my integrity led me to confess to the bishopric I no longer had a testimony of Joseph Smith. I wept as I said it. He wept too. I’m now worshipping in another kind of church building. I am not a tare! God loves me and I am enough! I would love to take you to lunch sometime and talk about this some more. Would you allow me to pour my story and my heart out to you? I am hurting. I feel betrayed. I can’t go back. Ever. My Christ isn’t there! But since I probably live across the country from you, perhaps you can be a listening ear for one of your friends who has left. It’s likely been the worst year of their life.
Very Sincerely,
Tearsa Gardner
I am sorry your research led you to believe that your Christ isn’t here, Tearsa; my research and praying led me to the opposite conclusion. I am very much aware of how adroitly the adversary positions himself to give us information that is death to our testimony. He revels when he succeeds. Unlike critics of the church, who vilify us, I believe there are very good Christians in all churches of the world, but their are some very wicked ones as well–mine included. This is what was meant by the “Great and Abominable Whore–that is, all who are not for Jesus, whatever their denomination.
I had to stop reading the comments about half way through. So many people assume that people who are struggling with their beliefs are sinners or never had a testimony. I hear so much judgement and frankly it just hurts. Most people who discover historical information that was once deemed anti but find out now it’s true are shocked, hurt and feel betrayed. I would just encourage people to stop judging and live without any agenda on either side.
I think you’ve done a good job at explaining your reasons for staying. Just understand that ALL of your reasons could be used just as validly by another faith tradition. What is good in the LDS church is not unique to the LDS church. There is simply no reason for anyone to feel sorrow because someone they know has left the church. Their reasons for leaving are just as valid, if not more valid than the reasons to stay. Just be happy that they are finding peace.
I didn’t leave the church because church was inconvenient or embarrassing. I didn’t leave because I expected perfection. I lost everything when I left the church. It has been the hardest thing I’ve ever done. Many have been quick to tell me to doubt my doubts and remember the Savior, but precious few have been willing to learn what I have learned , to study the issues, to provide real answers.
First off, let me just say that if anyone has mistreated you, that is horrible. There is never a good reason for disrespect and rudeness. Second, I also want to be clear that if your beliefs are attached, YOU are not being attacked. If your beliefs are true they should stand on their own. Third, I would agree that your beliefs bring you happiness but that does not make them true. I would highly recommend actually listening and researching what ACTUAL reasons your friends have for leaving. Making assumptions can be misguided. And last of all, have you ever considered that despite being one of the special elect that compromises less than .02% of the world YOU COULD BE WRONG? Again, please differentiate between personal attacks and attacks on your beliefs. CESLetter(dot)com
If you want to help the lost sheep, I would suggest learning about the issues so you can intelligently help others with them. The Holy Ghost brings things to your remembrance which means you need to study and search not just read. And instead of ostersizing them show forth love and a helping hand. By this shall men know you are my disciples that you love one another. Not that you ignore them now that they think differently.
Why? Because God himself said so, and it doesn’t matter what anybody else says, does, or thinks.
Deuteronomy 18:20-22
20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, is to be put to death.”
21 You may say to yourselves, “How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the Lord?” 22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the Lord does not take place or come true, that is a message the Lord has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously, so do not be alarmed.
If you do your history you can read about many profecies Joseph made that did not come to pass
Wow. The persecution complex is insane. I’d like to see what comments she’s talking about, both from her family and from her cyber bullies, because it sounds like bull. Or over sensitiveness. I’m a former Mormon, and the things I hear from active “Saints” is appalling, including full-blown swearwords and threats, so I guess it comes from people being crappy and not from them being Mormons, ex Mormons, atheists, or what have you. But they’re online threats, so I wouldn’t call them actual harassment. I’m never going to see those people anyway.
What worries me about the intro to this post is that it seems that people are leaving because (surprise) the person was offended. Another one because he wanted to sin (the rules are too restrictive), and others that she can’t mention, or something. This is crap. Most people are leaving because they’re finding the truth of the history of the church and can’t deal with the fact that they’ve been lied for so long. That’s why.
And writing a solitary sentence to give it a stronger effect (“I can’t stay quiet anymore” or whatever) is a cliche. It’s annoying to see it, because it’s like when you notice the music queue in the movies when you’re supposed to fee sad or happy or scared.
Bleh.
“Some would suggest that the church is not true because prophets have been wrong, because prophets are imperfect, and because prophets just don’t understand.”
———————————
Social Media and the internet in general make things interesting. On that subject of prophets not being perfect, I often wonder what people would have said about Moses during his time if they had the internet and Social Media back then.
No doubt it would be a preponderance of negativity. Just look at the little bit that we know now about Moses and how negative and critical his own brother and sister were towards him as the Prophet of God. They were critical regarding his marriage earlier in his life (while a Prince of Egypt) to the Ethiopian princess Tharbis. Some historical accounts insist that not only did Moses marry her and consummate their marriage but that he also fathered a son with her before abandoning her to return to Egypt. The Bible records that he later married another woman, Zipporah, the daughter of Jethro and had a family with her as well.
The grumbling by his siblings was so bad that the Lord intervened and cursed Miriam with leprosy to get her attention and insist that she stop. Moses later displeased God and was prevented from being able to see the promised land and that blessing was given to another prophet. Who knows how badly naysayers of his time would’ve twisted things about his life had Social Media and the internet existed.
Reading the OT and NT shows plenty of examples where prophets are not perfect men. Moses killed a man, fled from justice, and had to be asked by God 4 times to lead His people out of Egypt. Elisha had 42 children mauled by she-bears because they mocked his baldness. Jonah ran and tried to hide from God when He wanted him to call Ninevah to repentence and then later was angry with God when the people of Ninevah repented and didn’t get destroyed. The Apostle Peter denied he knew the Savior 3 times during His darkest hour. If Social Media and the internet existed in their time I’m certain we’d hear a lot more negative things about them by anyone with hate in their heart.
I appreciated your post and it’s focus on developing a strong testimony of the Savior. I have an acquaintance in the church who has struggled with some things regarding his LDS faith but says the one thing that keeps him on board that he can’t forget are all the little things like answers to prayers, spiritual experiences and personal revelations and his feelings about the Savior. It’s those things that keep him going.
It’s not our fault the Mormon Church made Joseph Smith into some sort of Saint, as the term is normally understood. He was equal, and even better in his own mind, than Jesus Christ. The difference between the carefully crafted image is night and day. Who knew he was a predator who took young girls and others men’s wives as sexual trophys, subject only to his whim and libido. The man is more monster than prophet.
Should read: the difference between the carefully crafted image AND REALITY is night and day.
Key, this is the way the enemies of the church have spoken since the beginnings of the church. I will never believe these lies. I’m sorry to see them posted on this forum. Joseph died for what he believed, and whether you believe he was a prophet or not, he believed it, and so do I. This church is true. The Book of Mormon was true. Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, and Thomas Manson is a prophet today. How do I know this is true? The Holy Ghost reveals the truth of all things. I will take the Holy Ghost’s word over yours.
Fine with me. How about spending the next 30 days investigating Joseph Smith, an hour each day, and then get back to me. Can your faith bear it? What might you be afraid of?
“Joseph died for what he believed”
This statement is demonstrably false. Joseph Smith wasn’t arrested or jailed for his beliefs. Nor was he assassinated for them.
He was arrested and jailed for destruction of private property and treason (he illegally declared martial law and deployed the Nauvoo Legion).
While it was completely unjustified and unjust – and AGAIN I repeat it was UNjustified and UNjust – Joseph Smith was assassinated for a complex mix of issues (none of which has ANYTHING to do with his beliefs) including, but not limited to:
– Violating the freedom of the press.
– Abuse of ecclesiastical, political, and legislative power.
– Turning Nauvoo into a haven for thugs, murderers, and thieves.
– Various and sundry illegal activities like counterfeiting and real estate fraud.
– Assembling and arming a private army (The Navuoo Legion) that was larger than the Illinois State Militia. This was perceived a threat to surrounding communities.
Joseph Smith was assassinated for what he DID not what he believed.
Keith, there were a LOT of weird religious groups and leaders on the American frontier (remember in 1844 Illinois was part of “The Wild West”) Joseph Smith and the Mormons were just another one of the bunch. Nobody cared about what Joseph Smith and the Mormon believed except for what impact it had on what they DID. In frontier America what you DID mattered FAR more than what you believed.
If you doubt anything that I have just said I would recommend that you read Alex Beam’s superb book, “American Crucifixion: The Murder of Joseph Smith and the Fate of the Mormon Church” (see http://smile.amazon.com/American-Crucifixion-Murder-Joseph-Mormon-ebook/dp/B00GL9TP0K), which goes into deep detail on each of these points.
“whether you believe he was a prophet or not, he believed it, and so do I. This church is true. The Book of Mormon was true. Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, and Thomas Manson is a prophet today.”
Well to quote Lyndon Lamborn, “Declarationism is the last bastion of the unreasonable fanatic.”
“How do I know this is true? The Holy Ghost reveals the truth of all things. I will take the Holy Ghost’s word over yours.”
And there are millions that have the witness of the Spirit that Joseph Smith was a false prophet and the Mormon Church a false church. So whose “witness of the Spirit” should we believe?
Your posts remind me of an old quote by Lillian Hellman: Every word that comes out of [his] mouth is a lie, including and and the. Done with you.
“Your posts remind me of an old quote by Lillian Hellman: Every word that comes out of [his] mouth is a lie, including and and the. Done with you.”
Mr. Sims, if they’re lies then why can they be so easily verified and validated from Mormon friendly sources? Such as:
– “The History of the Church” by Joseph Smith
– “The Comprehensive History of the Church” by B.H. Roberts
– “Carthage Conspiracy: The Trial of the Accused Assassins of Joseph Smith” by Dallin H. Oaks and Marvin S. Hill
These were three of the primary sources in the aforementioned Alex Beam book. Much of what I said in my last post regarding the assassination of Joseph Smith can be validated through these sources. The rest can be found in public records such as County and State records in Illinois.
So if I’m lying so is current Mormon Apostle Dallin H. Oaks. So was Mormon Apostle B.H. Roberts. And so were Joseph Smith and the other Mormon sources who compiled The History of the Church.
Thanks.
Keith, I am really sorry to let you know but you are completely uneducated on these matters. Before you call them liars, do some research!
I get a perverse sort of kick out of those who keep admonishing members of the LDS church to “do the research” or “investigate completely”. I, and millions of others, have done nothing but that for years, and the more I study the pure doctrines of the Church, from every angle, the more it holds up. Those here who want us to “do the research” seem to be hung up on certain points that can all be refuted with a little “more research”. I sense a strong John Dehlin influence here as well.
So I gather you knew about the stone in the hat thing for producing the Book of Mormon going way back, and the fact that the gold plates were a prop. Given that, did you think it odd that the church paintings show JS translating from plates? I mean, that is not how it was done. But you knew all of that, right?
And you knew JS was convicted of fraud in a court of law for charging money for using a stone to find hidden treasure? Add you knew he coerced 14 year old girls into marriage (except it was for sex, not a real marriage), and you knew he lied about polygamy to his wife? And you have read other than church approved white washed sources? You know all of this, right?
“I, and millions of others, have done nothing but that for years, and the more I study the pure doctrines of the Church, from every angle, the more it holds up. Those here who want us to “do the research” seem to be hung up on certain points that can all be refuted with a little “more research”.”
Q: Was that research done using BOTH partisan, faith promoting sources AND non-partisan, external sources? Or was it just the latter?
I completely agree that when one’s study and research is limited to the former everything fits and integrates nicely. However, when that study and research expands beyond internal, agenda driven, partisan resources the cracks and fissures begin to manifest themselves.
I wrote an article on this comparing this phenomenon to trying to find magnetic north from inside a tank – it simply doesn’t work because the tank itself interferes with the operation of the compass inside the tank. Rather, one must get OUTSIDE of the tank to find true magnetic north. The main thesis of this article was as follows:
“Internal evidence that hasn’t been validated against external evidence can’t be completely trusted!”
That article is entitled, “The Problem of the Mormon Tank” and you will find it here: http://beggarsbead.org/2015/01/25/the-problem-of-the-mormon-tank-revisited/
“I sense a strong John Dehlin influence here as well.”
And you would be mistaken in my case (though I can’t speak for others here). I have been engaged in Mormon Studies since 1978. Until 2007 I had never heard of John Dehlin, would I have cared. In fact, even today I don’t really pay that much attention to John Dehlin.
Frankly, I find as much to disagree with John Dehlin about as I agree with. However, I do admire his courage, integrity, and commitment to ultimate reality (aka “truth”) at all costs. Those are qualities that I always admire regardless the person or context.
This statement in my last post (which is currently awaiting moderator approval as I type) contains a silly typo. I wrote:
“Q: Was that research done using BOTH partisan, faith promoting sources AND non-partisan, external sources? Or was it just the latter?”
It should have read:
“Q: Was that research done using BOTH partisan, faith promoting sources AND non-partisan, external sources? Or was it just the FORMER?”
I apologize for not doing a better job of proof reading before I clicked on “Post Comment” and thus creating needless confusion.
Yes I have read those things, and stand by my assertion that these claims are misrepresentations, out of context, and can be refuted with “a little more research”. You stopped your “research” too soon.
Thank you for sharing your perspective. It was beautifully put. It’s unfortunate and so sad to me that people find it necessary to say such cruel things with such hostile judgment. It’s hard when someone opposes so strongly something that is so special to you. Thank you for not staying silent. If others take the opportunity to voice their opinions (however ignorant and inappropriate they might be), then you absolutely should take every opportunity to speak your truth. Their attempts to silence you or disprove your faith only validates it more. Your courage is inspiring. Stay strong, and try to ignore the nay-sayers.
This place is just too negative for me. I feel as if I have been dipped in excrement reading the garbage that is allowed to be posted on this site. To those who lie about the church, your own words condemn you. I’m done.
I hope “those who lie about the church” includes members.
From facts denied to phrases like “I know” and “He spoke to me” the LDS culture encourages people to speak inaccurately.
Here’s the question you have to ask yourself: are your justifications to the problems with the church plain and precious truth, or convoluted rationalizations created by the cunning craftiness of men?
It is a simple truth that the scriptures and temple ceremony were plagiarized. An undeniable fact. Yet apologists attempt to rationalize it away through incredibly warped lenses. That’s not divine inspiration, that’s the arm of the flesh.
Keith, please show the lies. You are calling people liars without showing how they are liars.
Well before you go let me just ask one last time:
How important is it to you that the truth claims of the Mormon Church are in reality true?
I have asked several times now and have yet to get an answer.
Thanks.
“To those who lie about the church, your own words condemn you.”
Actually, as been shown to you several times after you’ve leveled this charge at critics throughout the discussions on this page: Those alleged “lies” are easily proven true with only a minimum effort – and usually from Mormon friendly sources to boot.
Attempting to discredit and kill the messenger because you don’t like the message doesn’t make it any less true. Kill the messenger and the facts still remain.
Thank you for your time Mr. Sims and I hope that you will ponder on, consider, and take the time to validate for yourself that what I’ve said in this post is true.
Ugh seriously. I’m sick of the fact that so many trollers hunt and bash articles like this. If you don’t like something, don’t participate in it. It’s as easy as that. Nobody twisted your arm to come here and read this article so stop being a jerk.
You can find something wrong with every religion in the world, but it doesn’t mean that its members are evil or wrong for believing. Pure religion is love. It’s not the oil’s fault that the vessel is cracked or fragile. Same thing with doctrines and principles of religion and its members.
Promote what you love instead of bashing what you hate. I can’t stand how people think everyone wants to hear their opinions based on hate and disdain. You may have a right to say what you think, but we have a right not to listen.
How is presenting countering arguments or points of view, “trolling” or “bashing”?
Using the logic and arguments in your comment Mormon Missionaries are out trolling and bashing even as I type this.
Megan, staying silent would be morally repugnant.
My friends and family are still being harmed by this organization.
If a gold-digger was romancing your grandma, would you just leave it alone? Or would you try to expose them as the fraud they are?
Mormons leave the church because it isn’t true. History and archeology overwhelmingly show this over and over and over. Mormons cannot be Christians as they do not worship the Christ of the Bible. This is pretty basic. I think it is interesting how Mormons used to NOT want to be called Christians and now they do and they want to adopt Christian terms like grace, sovereignty, etc. The ignorance and dependence on emotion is quite sad for outsiders to watch. Being raised for 25 years in the church and being 4th and 5th generation Mormon, the best decision I ever made was to leave Mormonim and become a Christian-there is a HUGE difference between the two. You can’t address it until you’ve done it.
Thank you! I’m so grateful that you wrote exactly what I’ve been feeling over the past few week. I have had a few friends leave the church in recent years and I have been torn up about it for a while. Some have left because they no longer believe in God, others have left because they feel restricted, or feel that the church is not what it proclaims to be. I suspect some of the issues are related to female involvement in the church, gay marriage, African Americans and the Priesthood, and a whole bunch of other issues.
I applaud my friends for living by their own lights (because hypocrisy is worse than leaving the church in my mind). But I believe that they have failed to see that there are different aspects surrounding the church that they don’t understand. First, the Gospel of Jesus Christ. This is unchangeable and non-negotiable. Second, the structure of the church. Leaders and members are human and last I checked, Jesus was the only perfect person who lived. And third, the culture of the church. Culture differs from place to place and when connected to the church, it can get pretty weird. Sometimes the culture affects the leadership and vice versa. But neither of these affect the Gospel. Maybe I’m just good at compartmentalizing, but if I have a testimony of the Gospel (which I do), then I can work with the structure and the culture. Antis will always exist and there will always be those with claims against prophets and the church, but I have found many of those claims to be unfounded. It takes a good researcher to sift through the information and find the truth. So many can be swayed by hearsay that has a grain of truth in it.
If I believed that Joseph Smith really did see God and Jesus Christ, I’d be right with you, sister. But I don’t. Whatever good the church is or does, it’s not what it claims to be. All the restrictions, the judgment and the boredom at church I accepted and created while I believed in that one single act of God and His Son visiting a14-year-old boy in the woods. Once that fell apart I continued to stay because of the loves in my life. But the more I stay the more I see people denying themselves fuller lives, all because they believe a fraud. I can’t support that anymore.
Why I Stand By My LDS Friends Even Though They Haven’t Left the LDS Church
“I’m staying in the LDS church no matter what.” I’ve heard those words several times from LDS friends who have come to recognize the LDS church cannot be true, but feel compelled to stay anyway. Some stay because they fear their spouse will divorce them if they leave, and turn their children against them. Others stay because the LDS church does such a good job of degrading every other church and religion, they feel there’s no other church or religion out there that could better meet their spiritual needs. Still others stay because they hold church employment and are afraid to lose their job.
I cannot express the deep sorrow I feel for each of these individuals whose honest, soul-wrenching search for truth has led them to the conclusion that the LDS church is not, and cannot be, God’s one and only true church–but nevertheless feel constrained by social and economic considerations to remain active members. But I will continue to stand by them no matter what, with a listening ear, with a compassionate heart, and with a non-judgmental mind.
I will stand by them because, like me, they were born in the LDS church. Like me, they were taught from an early age that the LDS church is the only true church.
Like me, they were taught that good and righteous people will get a witness from the Spirit that the LDS church is true.
Like me, they wanted to be a good and righteous person, and that meant we had to find a way to get a testimony.
Like me, they struggled to get a testimony.
Like me, they felt the intense pressure from parents, teachers, grandparents, uncles, aunts, and fellow ward members to stand up at a podium and proclaim that we “knew” the church was true.
Like me, they were taught that the best way to get a testimony is to bear one even if you don’t have one.
Like me, they were taught that if you haven’t developed a testimony yet, you must have some unrepented sin or some other spiritual obstacle standing in the way.
Like me, they eventually had the same types of spiritual feelings and experiences that other people have in all other religions and churches, but we interpreted those experiences the way we’d been taught to interpret them since childhood: as a witness that the LDS church is true.
Like me, their parents required them to attend three hours of church every Sunday.
Like me, they were required to attend religious indoctrination classes every morning for four years in high school.
Like me, they were expected to serve full-time missions for two years, and we did so.
Like me, they were taught that only people who receive LDS ordinances will receive exaltation and be able to live with our families forever.
Like me, they were sealed in the temple.
Like me, they’ve held ward leadership positions and given thousands of hours of service, and tens of thousands of dollars to the LDS church.
Like me, most if not all of their close friends are LDS, and they fear losing those friendships.
Like me, they came to realize that everyone is born into a different religion and church, and that the only way to determine whether the church you were born into is true is to open your mind and seriously re-examine the faith you inherited from your parents–that is, to do the same thing that Mormon missionaries ask investigators to do: to have the courage to seriously re-examine and re-consider whether what they were taught by their parents since childhood is true. To consult sources both inside and outside their inherited faith, to use common sense, reason, logic, and to carefully consider all the available evidence to reach a conclusion without bias.
Like me, they prayed earnestly for truth, but prayed in an open-ended way. They stopped praying for God to strengthen their already-existing view, and instead prayed for God to lead them to truth, wherever that may be.
Like me, the more they prayed open-ended prayers like that, they saw more evidences that the LDS church is not true.
Like me, they’ve been faced with a very difficult decision: to stay or leave. I left. But they’ve stayed behind. Not willingly. Not as an exercise of agency. Not because they believe in it. But out of fear for all of the negative things their LDS spouse, family members, friends, or employers might say and do to them if they leave. Fear so strong that it sometimes gives them anxiety and panic attacks. And so they feel trapped living a double-life, not believing in the LDS church at all anymore, but faking it and going through the motions to maintain the outward appearance that they still believe.
And I understand why they do it. I understand it all too well, first–hand, personally.
And so I will continue to stand by my LDS friends even though they haven’t left the LDS church. Out of compassion. Out of love. And await them with open arms to receive them when they overcome the fear that causes them to stay.
Nice one. You forget one thing though. Majority of the over 15 million members of this church today are converts and, like you, were not born into the church. In all this reasons you gave for being convinced, I looked for FAITH, but didn’t see it. But I get it. In this age of science, logic and reason, FAITH really isn’t important. I’m a convert, baptised in my first year in the university. And yes, I had the opportunity of attending quite a number of churches over the years before I became LDS. My decision to be LDS is the best decision I’ve made in my life to date. I hope my kids won’t just take my WORDS for it. I hope my WORKS will also help them make the decision when their own time comes. But I’d be very irresponsible not to give them any guidance now they are young just because I’m afraid of having them inherit a religion or belief from their old man. Your folks have done what they were supposed to do, but you’ve taken your own decision which is well within your rights as an adult. Good luck with that and all the best. And oh, by the way, I’m not American, and I don’t live in the US.
Ugh seriously. I’m sick of the fact that so many trollers hunt and bash articles like this. If you don’t like something, don’t participate in it. It’s as easy as that. Nobody twisted your arm to come here and read this article so stop being a jerk.
You can find something wrong with every religion in the world, but it doesn’t mean that its members are evil or wrong for believing. Pure religion is love. It’s not the oil’s fault that the vessel is cracked or fragile. Same thing with doctrines and principles of religion and its members.
Promote what you love instead of bashing what you hate. I can’t stand how people think everyone wants to hear their opinions based on hate. You may have a right to say what you think, but we have a right not to listen.
Arianna, what a powerful testimony! There are always going to be doubters, but as long as you focus your attention towards the Savior, you will not be lost. Others have lost their way, and don’t even know it. But others are right there with you, walking the same path that you are on. There’s a reason that Lehi’s dream about the Tree of Life is so powerful. It’s because it is true!
Sadly we know through scripture that 1/2 of the Church membership will not have a testimony strong enough to withstand the world. It is heartbreaking when it is family members leave the church, all we can do is pray for them. The ONLY comfort I found when my daughter was lost, was HOPE & PRAYER & a talk Joseph Smith Made at his friend King Follett’s funeral. Turning to the Scriptures provided NO comfort in this situation
I have spent almost all of my adult life outside of the church. I’ve never once doubted that I had a testimony, just that I chose to exercise my free agency.
I didn’t realize what true happiness really meant until I came back and found it in living as the Savior taught.
Remember this, being a Mormon is not for the faint of heart. It is for those who are abled and courageous to fight the never ending battle.
The Savior did not have a peaceful life, he was ridiculed, mocked, spat upon and whipped, but he taught and lived and was the only perfect person that walked the earth.
Opposition will always be a part of our lives, it’s the only way we will know how to find happiness and joy. We have to pass through sorrow in order to know what real happiness really is.
I personally think that this is how we become closer to our Heavenly Father. We rely and trust and have faith that he will direct our lives if we listen to his guidance and teachings.
Remember the scripture that says, “Many are called, few are chosen.” Do not give in to the enticings of the natural man. It will only be temporary and only for this life.
Always have an eternal perspective of things even when it seems unreal. I promise you don’t want to spend all of your adulthood living in misery.
The devil works that way. He loves misery. That’s why he recruits so many companies. lol
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves.
Signed,
Jesus Christ
(Mathew 7:15)
I think a stone in a hat warrants Jesus’ warning.
nice game
Reminds me of an event from the life of Christ-
John 6:66 ¶From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
Thank you so much for sharing your testimony with us all. It is a truth that greatly needs to be heard.
But so thankful for sharing your testimony, it shines a more brighter light, that things happen for a reason we may not know yet- they just happen. You got one thing right, we all deal with hardships in this life- but we have to be steadfast with our faith in Jesus Christ. I love this church, and I now all its teachings are true!
This is what you believe, so don’t let people try to rewrite it. Snarkiness, superiority, whatever they throw at you. Be true to what you know and let the world collapse on itself trying to shout you down. If it hates you, so be it–it also hated the One we follow. I love how candidly you accept that there is antagonism towards your perspective without attacking it in return. This is the best evidence of your sincere commitment to the Savior. I’m with you, by the way. You’re definitely not alone.
Christ spoke truth in a snarky, superior way to entrenched religious people who loved the status quo and tradition more than God.
Christ was about truth and reality above all else.
Those who truly love and follow Him will be too.
This really touched me in a time that I needed it. I needed the reminder that our church is built on Christ, not the people who are part of it. I especially loved the quote: “To not believe in prophets and to still claim to believe in Christ is to invalidate a vast majority of Christ’s words.” It makes me sad to see as I scrolled down to comment the circling contention that inevitably surrounds every church-related post- everyone trying to convince somebody else that they’re wrong. It’s usually why I too stay quiet, but I appreciate you speaking out today!
“To not believe in prophets and to still claim to believe in Christ is to invalidate a vast majority of Christ’s words.”
Could you please show us from the Gospels where Christ said or taught that “following prophets” = “following Christ”?
Thanks.
I just have one thing to say. Thank you!
I love this post! Thank you.
You have an inspiring blog, keep it up. Satan will try to make you stop, but Heavenly Father will help you stay diligent.
Thank you for reminding me what the focus of my worship is. Not the imperfections of this world but the hope of the next and the promises thereof.