The other day, one of my friends posted an article from Tech Insider titled “This fearless Mormon feminist is doing something very brave and very dangerous.” I groaned inside, but took the bait and clicked the link anyway. As may have been expected from the title, the article ended up being a fairly sensationalized piece whose primary source was the Mormon feminist. I think one other individual was quoted and even then, just once. I don’t quite consider myself a journalism professional, but having had five years of news-writing experience, I was pained by the lack of professionalism and credibility exhibited by the writer of this piece. It bothered me more than the “very brave and very dangerous” feminist did.
After reading the post, I scrolled to the comments, hoping to see that someone was clearing up misconceptions, biases, and mistruths this article showcased. What I saw angered me in a different way. There were your typical “MORMONS ARE A CULT!! DON’T BUY INTO THEIR FAIRYTALE GOD!!!” comments. There were your typical “Mormon leadership is a bunch of greedy white males trying to build shopping malls from your holy money” comments. But the comments that bothered me the most came, surprisingly, from members of the church. These commenters attempted to defend their beliefs, but before doing so, almost every single one of them began their comments with a variation of the following phrase:
“If you don’t like the church, why don’t you just leave it?”
I cannot begin to number the times I have heard this phrase used by members in their attempts to defend the church. I’ve read Letters to the Editor telling opinion writers that they should get out of Utah if they don’t like the Mormon influence. I’ve read comments on Facebook following the Ordain Women movement that told women who think they’re being treated unfairly to just leave and start their own church. I’ve heard well-meaning (I hope) ward members who, frustrated by others who press issues in the church, assert that everyone would be happier if these members left. In another context, I’ve heard it mumbled by young men/young women leaders who think a troublemaking kid with a struggling testimony would do everyone a favor by just going home and never coming back. All of these have caused me to sit back and feel completely defeated.
What are we thinking?
If we have a testimony of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, if we understand the blessings that come through being a member, if we truly understand the doctrine, then how on earth can we encourage someone else to leave it? Christ left the ninety and nine to rescue the one, and instead of following His example, we are literally telling that one to leave soon if it’s going to leave. How are we okay with that?
In the world we live in, religion has been stripped of all truth and is instead treated like a collection of ideological fast food joints. You can pick and choose what you want to believe — Catholicism, Islam, Christianity, etc. — because a church is just a church, beliefs are just beliefs. We know better. Ours is a church with the Priesthood restored to the earth. Ours is a church wherein are sacred covenants that bind families to each other forever. Ours is a church with doctrine that allows us to move forward and eventually become like our Heavenly Father. It isn’t just a church, nor should somebody just leave. If we understand and believe the gospel we claim to believe, it is inexcusable to tell someone — they could be struggling with part of their testimony, they could be worried about church history, they could be inactive, or they could be actively voicing opinions we find shocking — that they should drop everything and go. They need the gospel and the blessings that come from it. The church needs them, their insights, their contributions and personalities. And we need to stop pretending like our wards would be better off without them, because our wards are only going to get better when we rid ourselves of the attitude that anyone different needs to leave.
Again, it makes me ask, “How dare we?” How dare we, knowing exactly what our Savior would do to save a soul, knowing how He would respond with love, and knowing what He would say to the troubled soul on the brink of going, do the opposite? Maybe the truth is that we don’t know the Savior at all, or we don’t desire to be like Him at all. I don’t know which is worse.
If you have questions, if you’re one of those who simply don’t like the church, please stay. Please keep coming. Put your heart and soul into figuring it out, asking questions, and trying to learn. We need you, and I think you need the rest of us, too. The truth is that we’re all imperfect, and we’re all figuring it out, even if we wouldn’t admit that we are. Stay for the joy of serving others, stay for the peace you receive in the temple, stay for the Sacrament and the chance to become like Christ.
If this church is not what it’s claimed to be, you’ll live your life becoming a better person. If this church is what it’s claimed to be, your reward for staying will be so large, you won’t be humanly capable of comprehending it.
If you go and it’s true, then what?
Christ loved all of us dearly, so much so that He willingly allowed Himself to feel our pains and discouragements and sins and confusions. Every one of us is important to Him. Every one. So let’s be patient with ourselves and each other. Let’s be more loving. Christ isn’t lying when He says the one sheep matters. Let’s not act like He is.
The Terrible Advice Mormons Should Stop Giving
Comments
107 responses to “The Terrible Advice Mormons Should Stop Giving”
THANK YOU. This is what the world needs.
So right Arianna, thank you.I have read a great book entitled “The Crucible of doubt” by Terryl and Fiona Givens. They write, “the body of Christ needs it’s full complement of members- the devout, the wayward, the uncomfortable, the struggling”. We must open our arms to everyone as Jesus did. Our words will condemn us at the last day if our attitude is, “go away”, or “form your own church”. God isn’t through with me yet, (thankfully). Why would we force him to hurry the wayward along? Be patient. Be loving. Be kind. Extend an arm of friendship. In 3 Ne. 18, Jesus said the following. Do we believe it?
22 And behold, ye shall meet together oft; and ye shall not forbid any man from coming unto you when ye shall meet together, but suffer them that they may come unto you and forbid them not;
23 But ye shall pray for them, and shall not cast them out; and if it so be that they come unto you oft ye shall pray for them unto the Father, in my name.
24 Therefore, hold up your light that it may shine unto the world. Behold I am the light which ye shall hold up—that which ye have seen me do. Behold ye see that I have prayed unto the Father, and ye all have witnessed.
25 And ye see that I have commanded that none of you should go away, but rather have commanded that ye should come unto me, that ye might feel and see; even so shall ye do unto the world; and whosoever breaketh this commandment suffereth himself to be led into temptation”.
That last line is something that judgemental members might keep in mind.
Some members want to stay in the church where they can do the most damage. Others really want to leave but we won’t let them go.
Revelations 3:16
1 Nephi 7:15 Here Nephi is saying the same thing you object to. He tells his brothers if you don’t like it, you can go back. It is your choice.
I agree, though, we shouldn’t challenge members with a dichotomy to change or leave. Give them time and respect their agency.
3 Nephi 18:32 You never know when someone will have a change of heart.
I agree! Not that I think it’s right to tell people they should go, but statements about excommunication saying something to the effect of it taking Eternal Life away from people are fundamental misunderstandings of the meaning of membership and covenant. We don’t need to keep people in unkept commitments, but be more welcoming to fence sitters and the disenchanted without pressuring membership without understanding and commitment to corresponding covenants. It’s ok to attend without being a believer and covenant maker/keeper, but membership is for covenant keepers. You need to be a believer or have a desire to believe in order to keep covenants.
“Some members want to stay in the church where they can do the most damage.” That is from your perspective. From our perspective it is, and if you were in our shoes you’d see it this way too. “Some members want to stay in the church where they can *spread the most truth.”
To understand us you’d have to know what we know. Though, if you learn what we know you run the risk of becoming us. How many here have come to the table with their now exmormon friends and family and asked what they now believe and why they believe it? I recommend you do that with the same earnest that you did when you prayed to know if the church was true.
According to interpersonal needs theory your face (or desired public image) requires various needs. One of those, competence face, which is the desire to be seen as competent, smart, or intelligent wasn’t met after we left the church. This has got to be especially true in areas where nearly every single person one interacted with is LDS. To fulfill this need that we didn’t receive as we left the church and (something that we view as a huge decision that is often met with incredible disinterest) we seek you out and spread our knowledge. It fills this gap in our face needs.
We know what makes you click though – a lot of us once clicked in the same exact way.
In essence, you are correct. It is left to ones own agency to stay or leave the Church as they will. However, i believe what she was say, goes a little deeper than base agency. It touches an aspect of pride. We, as members, should never say that a struggling brother or sister should leave simply because they are not meeting our standards of what WE think a faithful should look like. We should instead try and act as the Savior would and help them through their struggles. To dismiss someone because we believe we are better, or more faithful than they are betrays the core beliefs of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. And, in the end, after all we can do, if they still willingly leave the fold, then we know that was their choice and it was not because we failed them.
Good article. After listening to a CD called the Crucible of Doubt, I felt that I needed to make some changes in the ways I react to challenges from non-believers. Love one another as Christ has loved us. He didn’t make any exceptions like only love those that believe what you do or who are nice to you.
Love does not mean telling them to stay in the Church if they don’t like it.
Love does not mean telling people what to do if they haven’t asked. It means respecting their agency. It means helping them when they need help, and loving them even when they are acting unlovable. ESPECIALLY when they are acting unlovable. No one ever said it was easy.
It also doesn’t mean telling them to leave because you (or I) are uncomfortable with their doubt. Love is accepting someone for who they are and trying to be a friend. Answer questions honestly and without pride, and we find ourselves loving instead of judging.
I believe you have proposed a scenario that does not happen.
I have seen people — even today — saying to people “If you do not like it then leave”. It is not because they are uncomfortable with the person’s doubts. It is because they are uncomfortable with the persons attacks on things that are sacred.
There is a difference.
I fear you are generalizing. It does happen, but by fewer than you make it out to be. I, too, have seen the effects of judgemental behaviors, but that’s exactly what the author was talking about. Telling people that we, as saints, need to be more living and less judgemental, and to not tell people that may be having doubts to just leave.
I am convinced that it is you who is generalizing — and falsely.
I have never seen anyone tell people to leave because of doubts. Never. And I have been at this online stuff with arguments on Mormonism for over 20 years.
I. HAVE. NEVER. EVER. SEEN. IT.
It is a fantasy.
Charles, I thought I was responding on another line there, sorry. However, as one of my lowest moments in life, I was told if I didn’t like it to leave. I left for 5 years. It does happen, even if it’s not often. I’ve felt the sting personally.
I believe you.
But I also believe that one of two things (or both) was at work here.
1) At your lowest point you were not merely expressing doubt but being actively hostile to the Church
AND/OR
2) The person you were talking to was someone who was encouraging you to leave because they want to hurt the church and its members.
See, here is what I think is happening.
People read this article and imagine that someone says something like these things:
“Wow. I just don’t know if I can believe any more”
“Joseph Smith had more than one wife — I don’t think he is a prophet any more”.
“I don’t want to go on a Mission”
“When I read the Book of Mormon — I don’t feel like it is inspired”
And they think someone just pops up and says “If you don’t like it then leave”.
That’s not what is going on.
It is not people stressing about losing their testimonies or feeling down or that sort of thing. It is when people attack the sacred — that is when I see it. When they communicate a total dislike of God or the Gospel or the Members or the Church or something like that.
That is when I see people saying “If you don’t like it — why don’t you leave?”
And that is also when I see the two most common responses:
I stay in because my family are members
I stay in because I want to work from within to destroy it.
I am distressed by comments like these. Saying things like, “Some members want to stay in the church where they can do the most damage.” I have never personally met anyone within our church who is having doubts of some kind who is out to take down the church. We read about people like Paul in the New Testament or Alma the younger and the sons of Mosiah in the Book of Mormon, who actually were trying to dismantle the church. What did God do with them, He sent an angel to help them see the error of their ways then used them as great missionaries. Have you ever thought that maybe not everything in the church is perfect? After all, the doctrines of Christ may be perfect (and are), but we the people of the church are fallible humans who make mistakes. I have absolute belief that the restored gospel of Jesus Christ is the correct path, but we are seeing more and more that there are people within the church, even some leaders, who have stood on traditions which are not necessarily doctrinally based, and with encouragement from members who are willing to speak up a bit, things are changing. The former Priesthood Executive Committee (formerly a board filled with male leaders only) is now The Priesthood and Family Executive Committee which includes female leadership within that council. I think our Lord Jesus Christ sought to help everyone who had even a desire to believe, to come, follow Him, and get on The Path, a path where we reach hands across the isle, so to speak, and lift up those who stumble, and help them along the way. Our job is to help smooth the path and maybe even carry someone for a while as they are weak and struggling. My job is not to say, “If you find the path too hard just step off and find your own way.”
” Saying things like, “Some members want to stay in the church where they can do the most damage.” I have never personally met anyone within our church who is having doubts of some kind who is out to take down the church. ”
I have seen them. I have known them. I have observed the damage that they have intentionally done. One thing though: They are not experiencing “Doubts”. They are definitely apostate.
Some are polygamists.
Some are atheists.
And some are just bitter.
I used to have an employee that laughed about lying in the temple recommend interview and then going to the temple and stealing all the locker keys just to cause problems. Some people are just psychotic.
Thank you for your positive and loving insight. I really needed to hear this today. Our ever evolving world is sometimes a scary place, and I needed to be reminded that if we are placing our trust and faith in Heavenly Father and our Savior, we have no need to fear. Just be a positive and loving influence, like you have been for me. Thanks again! And have a beautiful day 🙂
Slamming another piece of writing before writing your own drags your credibility down. Article names did not have to be mentioned to prove your points. Bad form.
Pot calling the Kettle black, isn’t it?
Citing sources is what a good writer does. And a persuasive piece, like this one, should cite it’s opposition. No harm, no foul. I highly doubt she was trying to be unbiased here.
Citing sources, yes, but this doesn’t feel like a citation. Mentioning the article she’s responding to is good, but linking to it would have been better (and better interwebs etiquette).
And that poor piece of writing deserved to be slammed. Clearly self-serving on the part of the “brave fearless feminist”
Your comment makes no sense. Citing another piece of writing does not diminish credibility.
Moreover, in this piece, it gives context to what motivated the thinking.
(But that article mentioned was pretty bogus).
Spot on Arianna! That was perfectly said.
Thank you! I think as a culture, many mormons, especially in Utah have forgotten to love one another. This is Christ’s church and if He wouldn’t act that way towards someone else, you definitely shouldn’t be doing it and thinking you are upholding your religion.
Wow. I’ll be honest, (not trying to be rude) but when I saw the title of the article, I was like “Gosh… I know I am going to hate this article.” I had no idea it was going to be something SO GREAT! I have been so guilty of saying, if not thinking all of these things!
I especially loved the middle part about how our church is different from others in its core beliefs and that we should never tell anyone to leave just as casually as some come.
Beautiful writing to be very much admired. Thank you!
People will rise or sink to the level they are most comfortable at. I’m not about to force anyone to stay in the church against their will, and if they are apostate, then they need to remove themselves or the Church will see fit to do it for them at some point down the road. Better for them to make the decision than drag their excommunication through the news.
Frederick, your comment is a perfect example of why so many people feel disenfranchised and leave. It sounds like you assume that people are static and that whatever “they are comfortable at” is like a thermometer rising or falling to whatever a person’s personal room temperature is, which never changes. I’ve also had numerous discussions with loved ones where I express my frustrations with the church, and often they often assume that somehow my growing feelings of distance with the church are associated with things that they really aren’t. As a church we’re conditioned to condemn at some level those that leave the fold, we’re told in scriptures that those who let go of the iron rod wander off into strange paths and are lost. I understand why church members think this way; no organization religious or otherwise can tolerate large amounts of dissent from within and continue to exist, that’s just human nature. But the self-righteousness of members’ attitudes towards those that have dissented and/or left has become just as vitriolic as the bitter dissenters that just can’t leave things a lone.
I’m glad that this discussion is being had, but it is very much the fact that there needs to be a discussion in the first place that lead me to become disenchanted with the church in the first place. I still attend, but more out of cultural obligation than real belief in current leadership. The reality is that the church rewards those that conform to cultural norms with more visibility and religious capital, and it took me going on a mission in one of the most diverse cities in the US to see that. The church has a very particular mold that it wants its members to conform to, and those that fall outside of that mold will inevitably feel disconnected. That said, I think the church is a wonderful organization and I’ve had some great leaders over the years. The biggest problem I see is that the church wants everyone to think and act spiritually like you would if you were a white business person. That’s the ideal we hold up to the world, and those that don’t fit that mold that are at all thoughtful can and should question that status quo.
The most accepting Mormon culture I’ve experienced was in Hawaii, but I think a lot of that has to do with the Hawaiian culture. People didn’t care if you were slippahs (flip flops) and jeans to church, they were happy you came to worship. Everyone was greeted with a hug and kiss on the cheek (which freaked me out at first) and it was the one place I felt most loved and accepted.
“The biggest problem I see is that the church wants everyone to think and act spiritually like you would if you were a white business person. That’s the ideal we hold up to the world, and those that don’t fit that mold that are at all thoughtful can and should question that status quo.”
Curious. I just came upon this article and reading the comments. I live on the west coast. I am not sure I understand what you are meaning. The members I associate with are all different in their looks and actions. What they do have in common is that they strive to serve their fellow man. Yes there are those that think everyone should be a certain way, but I don’t see them as the majority. I also see these people who judge that way very much need to learn some things about grace and judging, thus they are still learning, even though they think they have it down. I also know people can have every high expectations for themselves and they transfer that onto others also. My point is… the world is complicated. We have to love people for where they are right now in their lives. I have never seen the church leaders tell me I needed to fit a certain mold. Unless loving my neighbor and trying to do right in my life, to my best ability, is trying to put me into a certain mold.
I didn’t like the church, and I left it for that exact reason.
And yet, you are reading articles about it online. Interesting.
I like this article and the advice it gives. As someone who has deep doubts about the inspiration of the current leadership, I can say from personal experience that if more members acted like this the Church would be a more hospitable place. Acts of kindness–sometimes the simple lack of condemnation–go a long way to someone who feels like they’re on the outside of the faith they loved growing up.
Wow! Beautiful article, thank you
I so agree with you saying the Church isn’t *just* this or that. I find it hard to explain to people when they mention Mormonism’s rules or doctrines or whatever that it is so much more than that, it’s more than Chistian heaven/hell, its more than following the “rules,” it’s EVERYTHING. It’s the reason you and I are here, it’s the reason everything is, it’s where we came from, where we are, and where we’re headed.
People view it as a belief, a religion, a church, but that’s the last thing it is (okay, maybe that was an exaggeration), it is LIFE and I know that for a fact so I will not say “IF you believe in the Church, then it is…” because it doesn’t matter if you believe or not, it still simply IS.
Sorry if I rambled too much, great article!
Great opinion piece! I found it inspiring, but have something to add: too often, those who leave the church find they cannot leave it alone. Instead of becoming non-members, they become enemies. It’s better for us to welcome those with doubts than to make enemies of them. We have enough of those already!
But why won’t we, apostates, leave the church alone? That’s the question that needs to be asked. Most of us still have dear family and close friends that we view as being taken advantage of by a church. We also feel greatly betrayed by the LDS church. Many of the things we were taught growing up (or for converts the things they were taught by the missionaries) simply weren’t true. Even the things we were taught about apostates weren’t true. These things, that we are angry, offended, deceived set the stage for any discourse to be difficult to do with any civility. The church’s attitude toward apostates creates enemies before any information can be exchanged.
This!!!!
Uri, I’ve heard that statement before, that many things you were taught weren’t true, but I’ve never had anyone willing to explain to me what it is that they found to be untrue. Would you be willing to explain? I’m curious, because while I’ve had periods of inactivity to periods of almost zealous activity, I’ve never found any “untruths” in the doctrines of the Church. I’ve found that the truths didn’t fit the way I was living my own life, and sometimes that really torqued me off, but it didn’t mean it was untrue, it meant that I needed to look at my own life more closely and decide what I believe. In each case, I found that the truths of the Church and the Gospel of Jesus Christ called me back.
So, could you tell me what you’ve found untrue? I’m honestly interested, I’m not trying to be antagonistic.
If I go and it’s true, I’ll “fix” everything in the millennium. 😉
I find it a touch on the insensitive side, and a little frivolous to tell us “come anyway” when we don’t get all those nice things you think one gets. I don’t get peace there, I don’t like who I am there, I don’t like many things going on and it’s not just some bad Utah mormons who’ve made me feel that way.
Oh, and can we PLEASE stop using “the church is fallible” as a get out jail free card? Excusing bad ones because not everyone is bad, or that “Well, that was just your bishop. My bishop is cool.” or whatever it may be. Stop making excuses.
But isn’t it true that we’re all imperfect beings? Some simply ARE mistaken, or poor leaders, or whatever. It isn’t the Church that is fallible, or should I say the Gospel of Jesus Christ; it’s the members of the Church that are imperfect.
One doesn’t go to the doctor because he’s healthy, he goes because he is ill or in need of repair. That’s the same reason we go to church. We are imperfect beings striving to become more perfect.
Oh, and my bishop really is cool. 😉
Amen
I couldn’t have said it better myself (although I tried once). https://m.facebook.com/notes/melanie-paris-jones/as-sisters-in-zion/10151878904507593/
I think if people don’t like the Church they SHOULD leave. Why would we want people to be miserable? It makes no sense to want to drive them back to something that they hate. The Gospel may be for everyone, but not everyone is for the Gospel. Let each person make their choice and then let them have peace in their choice on this. What is wrong with that idea? It is not that we should not make an effort to teach people — but once they know, they can choose. This is not an evil thing. And if they hate the Church they should leave. It makes them unpleasant and it makes them feel unpleasant.
I think the author’s point was that we, as members of the Church, shouldn’t ever TELL someone to just leave. That decision is for that person and that person alone.
I have never seen anyone TELL someone to leave. And I suppose that some of my posts are objecting to the author proposing that as what is happening.
It is not what is happening.
I think a more appropriate response to the struggling, alienated, or disaffected member would be to tell them you understand that they are struggling. Encourage them to talk about it, or to someone else about their concerns if you feel unqualified.
I have been in health care for 25 years and I can attest that we seldom know the true motivations behind ‘acting out’ behaviors (they aren’t just a childhood coping mechanism) that we see in unhappy members.
If we can get to the root cause of a problem, we can often solve it. If we can’t solve it, we can an least understand why someone is having the problem. It can serve as a guide to ongoing interaction that is caring and non-judgmental.
I agree. I’m in healthcare too, and I completely agree with what you just said. I’ve been a nurse for 20 years, what’s your line?
All things critical care. Started In ICU (7 years). At year 3 began mixing in ER practice, then alternated, PACU, ENDO, IR, ER ASU as the mood hit me. Nurses are like priests in a way. I’ve had people tell me stuff they won’t tell their doc or even their families. I think it stems from nursing being one of the most trusted and admired professions. People know we are there to help them. You?
All things dementia- care for the first15, then Hemodialysis. I retired medical 3 years ago d/t 8 bulging discs, now run a desk at the VA.
The problem is that they are NOT Struggling. At least they are not struggling to stay faithful to the Gospel. They believe the Church is evil or wrong and they don’t like it.
The root problem is that they do not believe it is the true Church. And not being the true Church, they want it made over into their own image of what a “nice” church should be. Every man a law unto himself.
In a great many of these cases they do not leave because they want to attract other people to leave the Church and lose their testimony. This is not my imagination. They say this.
I will give you just one example of how this works. There is a fellow who has been a secret apostate in the Church for a few years now. He remains in the Church so that he can secretly convince his children to sin. He has done this effectively with his son — who he convinced to masturbate and be unwilling to go to the Temple. He has bragged about this success and said he is now working on his other children including (as I recall) daughters.
I am not giving you this example as merely my sole instance. This is just one of many many instances. But it puts flesh on the bone to show you a real deal.
I think there’s some underlying things that need to be clarified. A difficult youth being uncooperative is different than a grown adult saying the prophet is uninspired and spewing anti-mormon rhetoric.
Moroni didnt tolerate those who were seeking destruction from within, and neither should the church. The church does NOT need someone tearing the church and destroying the faith of others.
Salvation is not based on church membership, but on a personal relationship with Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ.
There is nothing magical about membership status by itself. It is in being faithful to covenants, reading scriptures, and praying that the real benefit occurs. Being a member and going through the motions to appease family, friends, and social reasons (encourages approval from others, as opposed to being true to self) I believe does more damage than good. Sometimes you need a “clean break” before you can properly heal.
Jesus said “you’re either with me or against me” there was no pleading for self declared non-believers.
We can still love, serve, uplift, and maintain relationships with those that left the church. If we are true to our religion we MUST do so. But that doesnt mean we should tolerate heresy when we see it.
I think the important thing here though, is that Moroni was a church leader, and it was his place to determine membership status. A general member of the church without stewardship has no business deciding who should stay and who should not.
Your right, its not my decision, but it is my decision to defend the faith, and if a person is repeatedly complaining and disparging the prophet, i think its an error to let it slide. What about the people of Ammon? Did they say to they plead with Korihor, telling him they needed him, and figure maybe he’d come around? No, they bound him up, and put him before the prophet. You can still be loving and have standards. Heck, its ok to doubt your faith, but its not ok to gather a following to protest against the church, as the LDS Ordain women movement were espousing. If its clear nothing will change their mind, and they’re determined to gain attention over it, then its ok to invite them to be congruent with their beliefs.
I think an even more important thing here though is that if a person does not like the Church, they should leave.
This is not anyone’s choice but theirs. Not even a leaders. They have that choice. They should make it.
Or stay. But then, really stay. Stop not liking where they are.
You say: “Salvation is not based on church membership, but on a personal relationship with Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ.”
While I agree with your overall point, I do not think you worded that correctly. Salvation in the Celestial Kingdom, per the scriptures, is based upon Faith, Repentance, Baptism (which is associated with membership), obtaining the Holy Ghost and Enduring to the End. At no point is a “Personal Relationship” mentioned in the scriptures as required for Salvation — rather it appears to be a benefit. And if you are not a member of the Church, you will not be worthy of that same Salvation.
As I said though, I agree with your overall point: Trying to keep people in the Church who do not like it, who tear others down, and who are toxic is not in anyone’s best interest.
Charles – While technically true, I was thinking on overall concepts. “…this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.”
Every principle of the gospel (faith, repentance, etc.) is to draw us closer to, to know, to be one with God in heart and mind- (aka. “To improve the relationship”).
In my understanding of things (based upon scriptural statements and the Temple) I think that the personal relationship with God the Father or with Christ are rewards for the other things.
Regardless, my point remains, salvation does not come by being classified as a “member” alone.
Wow, Charles, does Christ fit anywhere in your formula for salvation? Are statements like this one the reason other Christians accuse us of not being Christian? Christ is the source of our salvation, and yes, he has outlined and prepared a path for us to follow, including those principles that you mentioned, but to imply that our works alone are the source of our salvation is to deny the power of the Atonement of Jesus Christ.
David, yes of course. Where I said “Faith” I would expect LDS people would have recognized the “formula” where “Faith” means “Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ”, baptism means “Baptized in the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost” and obtaining the Spirit is through the atonement of Christ. I apologize for not making it explicit, but I did not think I had to do so.
I don’t think such statements are reasons for accusing us of not being Christian. Rather I think it is statements like this:
“Adam is our God and the only God with which we have to do”
“Lucifer is the spirit brother of Jehovah”
“[People say we] do not believe in the traditional Christ.’ ‘No, I don’t. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak.”
It is not what I said that makes them doubt we are Christians but things some of the prophets have said.
Finally, for you to claim that I have implied that it is our works alone is simply false. I did not do that. Did not allude to it. Did not say it and did not imply it.
You are just being a bit hypocritical — overly concerned about being perceived as not being Christian, while actually not be very Christian.
Aaron, everyone gets eternal life, we know that. But to attain the highest degree of glory, you must make and keep certain covenants that can only be made by being a worthy member. So saying that there is nothing “magical” about membership may be true, it’s not magic, but if you truly strive to live again in our Father’s presence, membership is necessary. You simply cannot learn all you need to learn on your own.
I’m not saying non-members are going to hell, or any of that other garbage that is often spouted by (sometimes) well-meaning members, but to attain the Celestial Kingdom, there are certain steps that must be taken. Those steps can only be found in the Temple of Jesus Christ.
True! members should care more about those who oppose the Church especially members.
What do you mean when you say we should care more about them?
Do you mean “Members should care more about them than they care about other people”? Or do you mean “Members should care more about them than they now do?”
Thank you for saying this. It really needs to be preached from the pulpit. I understand that sometimes a person who refuses the counsel of their leaders can then be separated from the church, but we should never be happy about that. The comments that I have heard from church members regarding these individuals can only be characterized as unChristlike. We should be saddened by the separation and anxiously await the day that we can all become part of the same fold again. You never know what causes someone to lose their testimonies or have the beliefs that they do, but we are commanded to love and show kindness and respect for all of our fellow men no matter their beliefs. Thus is Christ’s church and he extends his hand to all to come and join. His Atonement covers all.
I agree with your simple premise that we should not tell people to leave. My one issue with your piece is your credibility. For example, I don’t believe you have heard young men an young women leaders mumble questions of why a troublesome youth doesn’t do everyone a favor and stay home. Your tone and the way you suggested your accusation sounded like you were lying. Again, the premise is noble, but please make sure you don’t make the same mistake of using little white lies to boost your position. We’re not all fools.
In the last ten years, I’ve been in eight wards, on three continents, and have been involved in the ward council in six of them. I have NEVER heard any active member actually express the wish that a troublesome youth stay home. But I have two inactive adult daughters who claim they have been told things like this, so I guess it does happen.
Donald, I have a similar background in terms of numbers of continents and even more wards and locations. I have never ever heard any member say anything like this to or about any youth at all.
But I have heard or read people saying: ” get out of Utah if they don’t like the Mormon influence.” and “women who think they’re being treated unfairly to just leave and start their own church”
I happen to think if you don’t like Utah — for whatever reason — you should leave. I also happen to think, if you don’t like the LDS Church — you should leave. Exercise your agency and power and quit being bitter and complaining.
Quit being bitter and complaining? The Mormon church has been dishonest about its truth claims and history, indoctrinating young children to believe falsehoods, so that when these folks grow up and find out how hoodwinked they were they become bitter for a time and have every right to complain.
I felt like I’d been punched in the gut when I began learning the real truth (truths the church now admits to in its Gospel Essays), and given my lifetime of devoted membership, I earned the right to be a wee bit pissy. AND, to want to warn friends and family because I knew they had been taught the same way as I.
When the church or its members use the well worn phrase “they can leave the church but they can’t leave it alone”, they conveniently leave out just WHY life long members may have a difficult time letting go….. Given that church membership is the single most important, all consuming and defining factor, in the life of a devout Mormon. They also seem to forget that they can’t seem to leave the world alone, what with 80,000 missionaries, plus “member missionaries”, trying to tell the world’s inhabitants that their own sacred and beloved religious traditions are wrong, and that said person should join the Mormons. How’s that “leaving things alone”?
I appreciate that the author of this article understands that it’s not “us against them”, and it’s not so cut and dried as the church and its members try to portray…..finding out things are not what you were always taught regarding the salvation of your very soul is gut wrenching, and worthy of boatloads of compassion…
Yes. Quit being bitter and complaining. You have not “earned” any right to be pissy. You are not better than other people that you get to Lord it over others.
And as an apostate you should repent or leave the Church. A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.
Donald, I’ve seen it happen.
Fortunately there was a loving Bishop nearby who took the young lady by the hand and brought her into the activity that others were trying to exclude her from.
7 of 7 women like this article. 100%
10 of 15 men like this article. 67%.
I like the article. Like many, I have a hard time separating attacks or even doubts of my beliefs from attacks on me. When an insider turns against his/her former beliefs (or beliefs I thought they had) it can feel like a personal betrayal. It doesn’t negate the requirement that I follow Christ and treat others with love and respect, but my own feelings make it hard sometimes.
Thank you! This was refreshing and I’m grateful I did the click through!
You are the first LDS person since I was a teenager (20 years ago) to say what needs to be said. I was a trouble making teen and to this day the emotions of being ignored because I was different will drive me to tears. Thank you. I won’t be back but I hope you make a difference for a lot of people out there.
Actually, there are a lot of us trying to make a difference for troubled teens. Please don’t let the actions of a few thoughtless people deprive you of the best joys of your life. There are idiots in any organization. They are the ones who need our prayers the most. Those who have honest doubts and honestly express them are doing the right thing. That’s what Joseph Smith Jr. did, at age 14.
Hey KG!
That happened to me too. I left for a bit but came back. Some of my youth leaders never listened to me and only listened to the “popular” girls. It was a very trying time for me.
Don’t let them get you down! And just know you’re not alone.
–Annie
Like others have said, your overall point was fine without the first paragraph. The Chelsea Strayer article stood just fine on its own. Of course it had biases, just like this piece has a clear bias. Mistruths? Really? And why shouldn’t an article about someone use the subject as a source???
This is why people, especially women, are leaving the church in droves. People like you speak out of both sides of their mouths. “Stay!” “There’s a place for everyone!” “But only if you think the way I do.” “And make sure you don’t ever challenge the status quo.”
“People like you speak out of both sides of their mouths. “Stay!” “There’s a place for everyone!” “But only if you think the way I do.” ”
You may find people like me more to your liking. I say: If you hate the Church, leave it. Get on with your life.
I hope you, and others, read my comment. I appreciate your candor and honesty in your opinion piece. It is written with love, with much caring, and clearly with good intent. I can also tell it is written by one who knows what she believes and believes it is the truth, the light, “the way.” Fair enough. I was you too – wanting to spread Christ’s love and atonement to all, or so I thought, and not understanding why Mormons were leaving their church. And of course wanting them to stay – and of course stay for their own good, it’s their eternal salvation they are messing with! That is until my TBM 100% active husband left the church…. 🙁
Please keep preaching and teaching acceptance of all. Learn and show what Christ-like love is to others. Let’s truly stand up for everyone who thinks and acts differently than us. And let’s have courage to not accept excommunications unless there is grave cause.
But let’s STOP calling members who leave, for whatever reason, apostate. And do not use fear to get people to stay in the church. Saying comments like “if you leave and it is the TRUE church, then what?” Because that type of thinking is a huge part of this problem. If we are going to say that Christ loves all and died for everyone, then let’s darn sure learn what that statement means and then truly apply it to our thoughts and actions.
I do not think I will take your advice in some of these areas. Specifically, I am not going to readily and easily stand up for people who think and act much differently from me – and the more differently the less I will stand up. I suspect you are the same.
I also reject your declaration that we should become apostate and reject the judgments of excommunication.
And if people leave for apostasy, they are, in fact, apostates.
Finally, if using fear is a good enough motivator that God uses it, why shouldn’t we?
@Charles Do we always have to stand up against others who we disagree with? Are you so confident in your truths that you are ready to stand up against anyone who disagrees? Be very careful using the word apostate when you decide to judge others. And God teaches with fear? Are you confident in that statement? Did the Savior teach with fear?
I did not say anything about what you or others have to do. I only said what I would do.
I also did not say that I would stand up TO people who disagree with me. I just said I would not be likely to stand up FOR them.
Now, ask your questions again, in the light of the truth of what I said rather than what you imagined or thought I said.
I hear you Charles. I hear you loud and clear.
I have my doubts you actually do hear me. After all, you have not re-asked the questions in the light of the reality of what I was saying. That suggests to me you did not hear me.
Let us be clear – nobody should be telling members to leave the church other than the appropriate Bishop/Stake President/First Presidency after having prayerfully conducted and concluded a disciplinary council.
It is the duty of those called to leadership positions to protect the general membership from “ravenous wolves” and the kind of things mentioned in 1 Corinthians 5. If we observe the kinds of behaviours outlined in 1 Corinthians 5 then we are to sustain our Bishop by reporting the behaviours to him so that he can perform his duty.
Bottom line – would you be happy to witness a paedophilic act committed upon a Primary child and have the perpetrator remain in his/her calling to continue the abuse? How about a practising homosexual trying to lead the Young Men astray before their missions? What about someone openly pursuing your spouse?
Is it not a grievous sin on our part to knowingly permit such things to continue unopposed? (D&C 20:54)
If the person leaves (through whatever means) then we should learn what we can from the experience and watch ourselves against it. You could even try fasting and praying for them if you felt “celestial”……
If the person/people you have reported turns from their sins: the ball is back in our court and we are to forgive them or else have the greater sin remain in us.
Thank you for this article. No one ever told me if I didn’t like the church to leave it, but I left for 20 years because I mistook the actions of poorly behaving LDS members for the actions of a Lord I lost trust in. Your statement, “If you go and it’s true, then what?”. Well, then the One Shepherd never loses sight of you. He still watches where you have gone. He calls to you, softly and sometimes not so softly. And then after the initial exhilaration of being on your own without the flock to blame for your stumbling along on strange paths, when you are in the cold and dark mists wondering how you could have mistaken ‘your way’ for the right path, when you’re more lost than you ever thought you would be, then you may hear His voice again. And although I left because of great unkindness, I came back because of great kindness but also because the true voice of that One Shepherd called and I finally listened. He wants us to follow Him. So yes, please, all of us ‘in the fold’ think about what you say and how He would want you to say it. Thank you for your devotion Arianna!
I applaud how you said that and I am thinking about your advice.
Recently we had our missionaries over for dinner and one of them made a comment that Church is like a hospital for those who seeking to heal and in turn are learning how to stay healthy spiritually. He said that Gospel Principles was the ICU. I personally think that Sacrament is the ICU because it is there that we can partake of the atonement and keep ourselves clean from our own sin. If we were perfect, we would be translated and wouldn’t need this world.
That being said, I know my problem was thinking that others were thinking poorly of me when they probably weren’t thinking of me that much at all. They are all trying to get through this life and learn what they need to learn while allowing that beautiful gift that Christ gave us to heal our spiritual soul and take away our imperfections.
By going to Church, we all expand our understanding, allow the Holy Spirit to teach us individually what we need to know, and allow us to help those we connect with when the need support. We are all in need at some level of the principles to be taught over and over again and again. We will rise and fall, get back up and rise and fall again. Along the way, we will learn valuable principles about our own character and how to overcome our own pride & weakness. We will learn about love and how it isn’t as much an emotion but an act that brings greater understanding, knowledge, and willingness to serve one another. That full understanding is where the emotion part comes in. We will learn how to become like a child, humble, and realize that we need the help of a loving Father in Heaven because we don’t have all the answers. We will come to know that part of the gift of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is the knowledge we continue to gain as we persevere. That knowledge is key to our growth eternally. We will learn about the natural order of man and the laws of the universe are eternal and never changing. This knowledge opens our minds & enlarges our soul. Through the Gospel of Christ, we learn about our true nature, that we can be like them. How great is that. In other doctrines that would be blasphemous. But we are blessed to have a greater knowledge of Celestial Law and that we can attain that ability.We are also blessed to be able to share this knowledge with others.
I had a dream one night that my friends were in the telestial and terrestrial worlds and as a Celestial being I was able to visit them. When I went to see them they were crying and asking me why I never taught them about eternal families they all missed that part of their earthly experience. After that I made sure they all had the opportunity to gain that knowledge. I gave each one of my friends a Book of Mormon and my written testimony of Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ, and of the Gospel. I had never looked at my knowledge as a greater blessing that I would want to make sure everyone I met knew because I love them that much.
Discoveries and inventions are not of oneself. They are the designs and blessings of God and give us knowledge to help us progress.
Church isn’t a social club we are joining. We do get social aspects out of it but that is not the purpose of it. It is a place to learn about our origin, our eternal heredity, expand our knowledge, experience our trials so we can grow from it, and understand our purpose, and begin our journey of becoming like God, our Father in Heaven. There is so much to learn and so little time to do it in here on earth. We need to make the best of it.
I agree fully that we should encourage those to stay regardless of where they are with their testimony. After all, we are all imperfect. It is absolutely not our place to judge another or even compare our progress with theirs. We can love them and hope they feel comfortable enough with us to feel they belong in our company and we can strengthen one another to get through life’s trials.
While feeling rejection is painful, God hasn’t ever rejected one of us. I look at it this way, if there is judgement from another person, that is where Satan presides. Just love them so Satan can’t stand to stay in that soul. Know your purpose in coming to Church, be strong in your desire to become healthy and gain knowledge, and help someone else grow as you grow.
Love to you.
Just wait until you find yourself on the outside looking in… when you are not part of the popular group, or your skills are no longer deemed valuable – when you are targeted by “Good” members for the church and are wounded by their slings and arrows. It is one thing to be targeted and treated badly by the mean people of the world, it is something entirely different to experience such treatment at the hands of the saints. As pointed out by others in this line of commentary about the article, bad behavior on the part of members and church leaders is always explained away. It is like dealing with any corporation (and the church is a corporation), bad behavior on the part of any employee (up to and including the CEO and board members) is dismissed as being, “An unfortunate incident that is not in keeping with our values.” Bad behavior by the corporation (via policies) is also dismissed and blamed on individuals (although often, no one goes to jail or is held accountable). Bottom line people in the church need to speak up and not allow bad policy and behavior to go uncontested). Even if you think someone’s behavior does not meet whatever standard you think to be correct, you need to think and ask what would the Savior do? I don’t recall anywhere in the scriptures where the Jesus encountered a harlot or other sinner, picked up a rock, and shouted, “Die you rotten sinner!” Those of you that counsel members to leave the church if they are not happy are not emulating the Savior. Many people that are not happy with some of the policies and behavior at church, stay at church and work to bring about positive changes from within because they love the Lord and his church, and want to help the church and its members more closely reflect the teachings and values of Jesus.
“Those of you that counsel members to leave the church if they are not happy are not emulating the Savior. ”
I think you might not be right there. Here are some examples of things the Savior has said:
” Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.”
“So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.”
“If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him”
“Whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet… It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for [them]”
“If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.”
“Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.”
” he that sinneth and repenteth not shall be cast out.”
“they are as salt that has lost its savor, and is thenceforth good for nothing but to be cast out and trodden under foot of men.”
This advice was included in Elder Ballard’s talk way back in 2001:
https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2001/10/doctrine-of-inclusion?lang=eng
“And third, if neighbors become testy or frustrated because of some disagreement with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or with some law we support for moral reasons, please don’t suggest to them—even in a humorous way—that they consider moving someplace else. I cannot comprehend how any member of our Church can even think such a thing! Our pioneer ancestors were driven from place to place by uninformed and intolerant neighbors. They experienced extraordinary hardship and persecution because they thought, acted, and believed differently from others. If our history teaches us nothing else, it should teach us to respect the rights of all people to peacefully coexist with one another.”
1 Corinthians 1: 21-26 fits perfectly.
Read 3 nephi 18:30-32. The saviors teachings.
I love your article. You moved me and caused me to think. As we listen to Conference there will no doubt be talks inviting those who have, for whatever reason, found themselves moving away from the church to come back.
I remember President Uchtdorf particularly asking us to question our doubts.
People have the right and freedom to leave the church but I hope and pray that they don’t and if they have that they return.
The next question we need to ask ourselves is whether our behaviour towards others has made them question if they should continue in the church. We should all be at church because of a strong abiding testimony but that is a goal. In reality many who are there may be struggling. In my ward I should be making every effort to let everyone there know that I’m glad they are there, that they have a friend in me and that I would miss them.
It’s not about asking those who are struggling to leave but reaching out and saying you might be struggling but I care, I understand and I hope you will stay.
This is the first thing I have read from you and I so look forward to reading more.
I LOVE this article!! I know there are many times that I have silently suffered with my own testimony and dedication to the church – I can’t imagine what I would have done if someone had said to me during one of these times, why don’t you just leave then? WOW. This is a HUGE eye-opener, and I hope people realize that it is NEVER okay to say something like this to someone. We are supposed to support each other along this journey. I am seriously shocked that this is actually something people say!!
I really don’t know what church people here are talking about. The church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints I’ve gone to all my life is full of kind people trying to live a Christ like life, and I’ve attended a lot of wards in my lifetime. Yes, most of us are not perfect, but most of us are trying to keep our covenants and serve our fellow man. Maybe this is a Utah Mormon problem, because in almost 40 years as a member I’ve never seen or hear anything like I read on this page. Most Mormons I know are kind and loving and engaged in serving others.
I loved the article. Well done. And some comments are also well-expressed.
We should probably also stop telling people who feel hurt at church that they just need to have more faith or a stronger testimony.
I have seen online comments criticizing people who leave the church because they have been treated poorly by saying “They should have had a stronger testimony.”
I am bewildered by that attitude. A testimony is the sum total of the reasons you have for believing in God, Jesus Christ and the church. How is that something you “should” have so much of that you will keep going to church even when people are thoughtless or cruel? We say “Oh, they were offended and quit coming,” as if they were upset over something small. That may be the case sometimes, but certainly not all the time.
We seem to forget that some people are attending church because they want more reason to believe it is true, because they hope it is true or because they are deciding for themselves if it is true or not. How can we expect them to keep going if other people are thoughtless or heartless? We really need to make our meetings more welcoming for people who are doubting, investigating or unsure and have more compassion for people who feel hurt and don’t want to return.
Personally, I loved the article. I am currently inactive and have been for about 10 years now. My story is similar to Rebecca. I was going through a very difficult and confusing time in my life. I now realize it was a time when I needed love, compassion, and encouragement from my fellow members, but instead I received hurtful judgement. I blamed them for my leaving the church. I now know leaving was MY fault. My testimony is as strong now as it was then and I should NEVER have allowed others to influence me negatively. The Gospel is true, this I know with all my heart. The Gospel, as retored to the earth by Joseph Smith, is true. We all need to focus on our own personal journey and growth in the Gospel and not concern ourselves with what others are doing. By that I mean, we should love our neighbours and respect where they are on their journey. We should be accepting of everyone. The Gospel is “perfect”, we are not. Pride has kept me from returning to church, which I am currently working on. Your article has helped me a great deal. Thank you. : )
Really, truly, great article. Well done.
Arianna,
That was a well written argument on how we should look at the struggling members of the church.
I believe we too often focus on external manifestations of spiritual laxness or distress, when, in fact the “sufferer” may have no such concerns–rather they may simply be following the beat of their own drum.
Real spiritual distress comes from within, and the expressions that contradict doctrine and teachings are a direct manifestation of that distress.
The hypocrisy of not caring about such members will stand against us in the last days. As a former member, who came back, I am glad that prayers were offered for me, that love was shown to me, even when I felt most unworthy to receive it. I try to keep this in mind when I see someone struggling whatever that struggle might be.
All I can do is tell my personal story. I struggle with depression and low self esteem, and in Utah there are members who would love nothing more than to never see your face again if they don’t click with you. If you are not up to their “standards”. Some are just bullies hiding under a Pyrex full of jello. They say they have testimonies, and they are in Church every Sunday. How can they hear what is being taught and be such phonies and bullies? There is no scoreboard in heaven where God says “Well, you gossiped and ruined people’s reputation, you ignored people you believed were beneath you, you yelled at people in Relief Society who expressed a different opinion than you…but you were there every Sunday so enter these Celestial gates you little rascal you!!!” At any rate, I struggle to attend, like I said I struggle with low self-esteem and the last thing I need is to spend any time with the likes of them. And you can try and put me down and say that it’s my low self-esteem that clouds my judgement and makes things look different than they are. But I know the truth, and God does too. And I often hear “Well, if you really had a testimony you would go anyway.” I know I should go, of course I should. It is just that with my issues I find it next to impossible. That’s where I am now. I’m hoping it changes. But that’s where I am now.
It’s comments like that that lead my husband to stop going to Church many, many years ago before I met him. They were comments that many of his ward members said to him over the years that just made it hard for him to continue his membership.
After we got married (almost 11 years ago), he went to our bishop at the time and had a long conversation about his past, including everything since he had left the Church when he was a young adult. He ended up being excommunicated and it took almost 10 years of our marriage for us to find a ward who didn’t care about his past – but about his salvation and future.
You see, my husband has been in three LDS films. He did them when he was 8-9, in 1969-1970ish.
If you ever get a chance to find the one film that is not on 8mm filmstrips, it is called What About Thad?.
Thad just happens to be my husband.
We are in an amazing ward who has not only helped my husband be baptized again – but they are also helping us become an eternal family.
When people lash out about the Church, they don’t want someone to preach to them, they just want a friend and someone to show them BY EXAMPLE what the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is all about. NO ONE is perfect, except our Savior! 🙂
“Again, it makes me ask, “How dare we?” How dare we, knowing exactly what our Savior would do to save a soul, knowing how He would respond with love, and knowing what He would say to the troubled soul on the brink of going, do the opposite?”
Nailed it. I always wonder when I see people saying things like this at church, what they would do if the savior was sitting there in the room with them. Would they act so high and mighty if He was in their presence? Or would they be a little more sympathetic to those that are struggling or have opinions that differ from their own but who nevertheless want, as we all do, to live in a better, fairer, and kinder world?